a Klu Klux meeting, nor a Black Face minstrel show, it's officially not racist tell Dutch authorities and black people should certainly not be insulted by it.
It's a traditional winter feast for children widely celebrated in Dutch society. The man in white, Sinterklaas, decides which children get a present and the black people,- all called Black Pete, they are nameless as an individual, – do the actual deliveries which take place on December 5/6.
This year, as a gesture to people who felt insulted or ashamed by this tradition the slaves Black Petes do not wear golden earrings. People might see these are references to slave bracelets. It's rumored that next year even the overly bright red lip stick will be gone and variations will be allowed on the Afro hair style.
In the Netherlands further debate is next to impossible. Dutch parents feel collectively insulted by protesters stating this is a racist institution.
This weekend the police was instructed to watch out for dissidents during the festive parades of Sinterklaas and his black face helpers. So far only one arrest has been made.
P.S. To keep my passport I'm obliged to make the following disclaimer: The Netherlands is a modern country where racism can't exist, so it doesn't. It's just fun for all almost all.
#ZwartePiet #Sinterklaas #BlackPete #Politics
He reminds me of the Pope.
…what are the origins of this ancient tradition? o.O
The origins are vague. The 'sinterklaas' figure is modeled after a turkish bishop.
the black petes 'zwarte pieten' however are new. The earliest references can be found around 1920. First one 'helper', after world war II more of them. +Cindy Brown
No clear explanation how and why they would fit in this story.
try 1820 😉
You almost sound sarcastic +Max Huijgen
Actually it seems it is a bit older than that – and it takes its story from an even earlier pagan story that was adapted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet – gives some of the information and is cited. Clearly from the costume, they reflect the Moor servant (in middle ages costume) who assists the bishop by learning which girls and boys are deserving and gives gifts to the children. Never in a million years would I mistake this traditional activity for a Klan meeting or a minstrel show.
The first drawing of sinterklaas with a plack pete i know off is from 1850.
o.O
The oldest drawing is indeed from a 1950's illustrated book, but the first appearance in real life seems to be around 1920.
Wiki is mostly recap of the arguments in Dutch debate +Tessa Keough There is no historical base for 'Black Pete' older than the 1850's book.
Is the debate that heated in the Netherlands +Max Huijgen? I must confess I have not seen any references to this before (from the USA and have a very good sense of what a Klan rally would look like and this is NOT it). Also wonder if elves in the Santa Claus version of this story bother those known as little people. Unaware of a controversy. Is your concern that with the Dutch version they are costumed to look like Moors?
I'll confirm that the picture resembles nothing like Klu Klux Klan, but I took +Max Huijgen's comments as meaning something you'd see put on by such people. (I've never seen anything remotely resembling this.)
It is fascinating to see how quickly "tradition" cements itself. If they're already making accomodating changes, it may reverse itself before long.
But wow.
+Tessa Keough the reference to a Klu Klux meeting was ironic. I know there is no real resemblance.
Santa Claus is a different figure. That's why I avoid the translation of Sinterklaas. In the Netherlands both Sinterklaas (5/6 december) and Santa Claus (December 24) are celebrated.
Oh interesting, I'd also assumed a winter festival/santa claus analog on Sinterklaas.
Is one more religious than the other? What are the differences between the two? Are the Kings Days (1-6 Jan) also celebrated?
Sinterklaas!
Regardless of where you stand in the debate, there is a time for such a discussion and there is a time to not have it. This is not the time to have it. Protesting it by adults and trying to ruin a children's party who have no idea about the controversy and who are unable to understand it anyway is sick, appalling, self-centered and egotistical.
If people want to discuss and fix this, start it mid-December and give yourself a year of grown up talk without the kids. Not when the festivities start and the kids are affected.
The interesting thing is, that it is not
blackdark skinnedheavily pigmented people who have been complaining but white people that think that people of another ethnic background could be offended.Next, old people are told to be offended because sinterklaas is always depicted as an old person…
A dark faced person who brings naughty children lumps of coal? It's a coal miner.
We're not allowed to disrupt the children's enjoyment of an institution that celebrates being served by people of color while a white man "supervises"? I think that's pretty much the perfect time to object and perhaps might give the kids some food for thought.
I do have a wonder, though. Would this have upset people so much if it were not white men in blackface but actual black men in the roles or does that just make it that much worse?
+Rafa Él Three kings is very different at least in the parts of Spain where I live. The black king is at the same level as the other kings.
+Rafa Él Sé que los Reyes Mago muy bien, pero no sé si Holanda tiene esa tradición por lo tanto, mi pregunta a +Max Huijgen
While we are at it, shall we take a tour of all European countries and highlight and object to their other national traditions, customs and laws, that we as foreigners don't understand, have no experience of and so feel offended by?
+Legbamel Not-Pop maybe this answers your question ?
http://youtu.be/LJeUye3zZnU
+Paul Wooding If I'm not mistaken, +Max Huijgen pointed out where Netherlanders are objecting to this aspect of a Netherland custom.
+Cindy Brown I think you are mistaken, as I can't seem to find any reference by Max to the Dutch people objecting to their own custom
In the Netherlands further debate is next to impossible. Dutch parents feel collectively insulted by protesters stating this is a racist institution.
+Cindy Brown that is not describing Dutch people objecting to their own custom.
And I think you will find Max's post to be laden with sarcasm.
If Max isn't originally from Netherlands, then my entire chain of assumptions is of course incorrect.
+Max Huijgen following the logic of the protesters we should ban all clowns as well. They are the symbol of white men all being alcoholic and stupid.
+Victor Westerhout If you want you can ban almost anything for being discriminating in one way or another.
+Legbamel Not-Pop it would help if you knew something about it. 🙂 first of all, we are talking about children max 6 or 7 years old. They do not have the mental capacity to participate in this discussion. They do not yet understand the concept of racism or discrimination. Second, what is actually being ignored by the ones disturbing these activities, is that Black Pete is actually the most popular character with the kids. It's the one bringing the fun, the laughs and of course the candy. Kids like him so much, they like to dress up like him, putting on costumes and painting their faces black.
+Cindy Brown yes, I'm Dutch and yes +Paul Wooding sarcasm was used in the making of this post, but at least some Dutch find faults with this tradition.
I was thought at school that sinterklaas is a celebration for Saint Nicholas of myra who gave al his possesions to the poor and helped slaves and children. Some of the slaves stayed with the bishop out of graditude and helped him in his quest (black pete).
+erwin bolink although a nice story, it doesn't have historical grounding. The whole slavery connection is not welcomed by the 'pro black pete' movement 🙂
In a news update it was revealed that some 'black petes; today were actually dressed up members of the Dutch police forces wearing body armour.
(not making this up: reference in Dutch http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2686/Binnenland/article/detail/3546421/2013/11/17/Sint-werd-beveiligd-door-arrestatiepieten.dhtml)
Also interesting to note is that this dutch tradition was the inspiration for santa claus. Santa claus was then eventually re-imported in the Netherlands as the 'kerstman' which literally means 'christmas man'. Yes, that's right. The dutch have 2 santa clauses.
+Max Huijgen I think that it will be almost impossible to get al the facts. There are to many things in the mix(odin, Ruprecht,krampus,saracens,moors,etc) 🙂
Thanks for that link from the volkskrant +Max Huijgen couldn't stop thinking about them arresting someone, stuffing him/her in a hessian bag.And carrying him away never to be seen again.
Shame that didn't happen though, kids would start behaving better RIGHT away.
Sorry…something went wrong. My last post is a video i found on youtube showing the different cultures and comparisons
Even though Christmas traditions were brought to the states originally by the Dutch (long before there was a defined Shwartze Piet character), by 1670 the English had pushed the Dutch to the fringes of society and imposed an even more conservative social standard. These early protestant now-Americans (until sometime in the mid 1800s) did not celebrate Christmas, at least not like the Europeans had done. Celebrations were seen as decadent because, well, the decadent Europeans had a long history of having some pretty raucous parties (feasts) on that day and the mainy protestant Americans were certainly not going to go in for that. Christmas celebrations were seen as something only low-born Catholics did, and it wasn't really until after 1960 (Kennedy) that it was socially acceptable to be Catholic in the US. The early Dutch immigrants to the US were apparently mostly not Catholic (the church campaigned against emigration to their congregations at the time), and the idea of a SinterKlaus in a bishop's hat would simply not play well in mainly protestant America. Santa was reborn, largely through children's stories (and advertising campaigns) into the character we recognize today, and so, when he was re-introduced to the Dutch he is really a different personage than the original SinterKlaus. The Schwartze Piets can be traced to a children's story by Jan Schenkman, a teacher from Amsterdam, who wrote Sint Nicolaas en zijn knecht (St. Nicholas and his helper) in the mid 1800s. Though the translation of knecht at the time is confused as the word has also meant in various ways knight, servant, and slave. I cannot read Dutch, but it would be interesting if anyone with a copy of that book could riddle out how Piet was described in that book.
+Max Huijgen I'm in favor of changing BP, but it's not because but despite hysterical revisionist nonsense like this.
Revisionist? +Marinus Calamari How can denial be the way forward?
When it's denial of nonsense.
Using big words without further explanation is just insulting +Marinus Calamari Speak up and argue or be silent…
It's clear BP is not intended as a stereotypical slave, but as the next analogue of the companion of Sint Nicolas/Father Christmas. But instead of a Demon or Elf, Sinterklaas got a magical Moorish henchmen. Not necessarily something that should still exist ANNO 2013 but not nearly as insidious as professional victim Quinsy Gario wants us to believe.
Intent is never the issue +Marinus Calamari Your uncle tom is my ex-slave. Racism is not intent, it's also in the eye of the beholder.
There are numerous testimonials by black people living in the Netherlands that they suffered from the image of a black helper. It won't help them or restore their childhood joy during these December days that it can be argued that Black Pete could have been Moorish.
Sure +Max Huijgen involuntary manslaughter is exactly the same as premeditated murder, because intent is never the issue. But, meanwhile in the real world…
And it's because people being uneasy by BP that I want him to change, not because of people like you who just make shit up to make BP an ultra-racist celebration of slavery.
What 'shit' am I making up? People feel insulted by it, it's an international telltale sign of racist intent and there is no legit historical background to defuse it.
International is irrelevant. It's a Dutch tradition/problem and the rest of the world should mind their own business.
I'm not going to tell the Spanish they can't do bull fighting either.
As far as people offended by it, there were like 20 protesters in Amsterdam this weekend? On a 16 million population?
This thing is blown waaaay out of proportion by excessive press attention. You can always count on the press to create a stir.
+Max Huijgen in your OP you explicitly suggest Black Pete is a slave. He is not and wasnever intended as such, [period]And international telltale sign of racism? By whose standards? Americans? Last time I checked they still dressed up their kids as caricatures of Native Americans for Thanksgiving for some good old fashioned feelgood propaganda that withe-washes the Native American genocide. And they certainly aren't the only ones with a fun for the whole family tradition that involves racial cosplay.
No takers on my call for some Dutch speaker to translate Jan Schenkman's book yet? At the least point me to a good English translation – I have no way to judge which translation is most faithful. If that really is the genesis of Schwartze Piet, it would be informative as to intent.
oye dhakan
Fucked Dutch racist tradition defended tooth and nails by white racist cultural activists.
+Cindy Brown Old rich man going around giving food to poor childern with his best friend: the young Pete. he is only black because he slid down the chimmny to deliver food/presents. nobody even tought about calling it racism in the neterlands until the UN interveint…….
+Laurens Huisman You targeted me for your necro comment because…?
you asked detail on the sinterklaas story
…and I got it, if you actually read the comments o.O
I am sorry for trying to be helpfull……….