As you can see the 'traditional' golden earrings are gone, the lips which used to be huge, are thinner and gone is the afro.
This is the result of a committee which would 'modernize' the image of what looked like a black slave servant. A successful makeover as he no longer looks like a slave from 1860; he now looks like a modern day descendant of a slave.
Progress? Don't think so.
Sinterklaas is a traditional winter feast for children widely celebrated in Dutch society. The man in white, Sinterklaas, decides which children get a present and the black people,- all called Black Pete, they are nameless as an individual, – do the actual deliveries which take place on December 5/6.
In the Netherlands further debate is next to impossible. Dutch parents feel collectively insulted by protesters stating this is a racist institution or at least remembers them of a painful period in Dutch history.
The police was instructed to watch out for dissidents during the festive parades of Sinterklaas and his black face helpers. Only one arrest has been made.
P.S. To keep my passport I'm obliged to make the following disclaimer: The Netherlands is a modern country where racism can't exist, so it doesn't. It's just fun for all almost all.
Will this makeover convince the world it's not racist at all? #Politics
If I were a black person I would want the guy to look like a black person, so as to at least be an accurate depiction, not this messed up version , that, or not at all. Just my opinion.
Is people dressing up as Santa's Elves dwarfist?
It is possible to be both a beloved tradition and a racist practice.
Can't the Dutch just switch to elves and be done with it? I mean the whole thing is effectively centered around a lie parents have been telling their kids for decades so why does it matter?
The tradition is not very old +Scott GrantSmith (in European terms that is). The first celebrations were during the years where slavery was gradually abolished (180-1870)
It's very interesting, because he was black first because of the soot of the chimney. So if that is the case why is he brown now? Wouldn't he be grey or white with soot smudges?
As a Dutch man, I have pointed this out on many occasions. Whilst there are some who do see racist elements and children pointing at black people calling them 'zwarte piet', I think most didn't even look at it as a symbol of racism, whether we are simply ignorant to it or racism isn't something we keep occupied with. It's also worth noting that the origin of Black Pete isn't colonial, though it's representation has influences, but rather it's a much older tradition of a black demon and St Nicolas, a tradition still practised in it's original form in Switzerland, where Black Pete is known as Krampus…for instance in this picture: http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=1rUBPXv7AFutKM&tbnid=XazJoZaDSZlKFM:&ved=0CAMQjhw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stadt-wien.at%2Ffreizeit%2Fweihnachten%2Fkrampus.html&ei=5l6fU_eYJsTNOPrXgbAE&bvm=bv.68911936,d.ZWU&psig=AFQjCNFh6Mn6Gs6ucJRsrmyZyXk8TsDswA&ust=1403039822308540
^^ Denial is not a river in Africa.
It absolutely has physical elements of black people, there's no denying that. And the fact that they have changed these excessive lips and earrings is a good thing. But instead of telling the Dutch they are racist, it might actually be more constructive asking them what they see in Black Pete, because we can easily distinguish the difference between a black person and Black Pete. Black Pete is the jolly friend that gives children sweets and presents. By saying we equate black people with Zwarte Piet, you are insulting our intelligence
Black from the chimney? He arrives that way fresh from Spain +Brendan Thesingh No the soot / chimney story is an artificial layer added much later to placate the disturbing black / slave image.
I would also like to point out that the woman who caused the great outrage towards this tradition last Christmas was a black lady who has spent her entire career and education on slave trade both in history and current, and the mistreatment of black people. To me, black people are equal to white people and most would agree. By spending all your time defending only one race, you are a racist
Look what you did +Max Huijgen.
The chimney thing is rediculous, a story they tell the kids. It looks like a person from the east indies, simple. A slave? Well that's up for debate, but I highly suggest looking at the history and evolution of the tradition. I mean, he wasn't called Black Pete until last century
+Scott GrantSmith You used the words "racist practice" in a comment above. First, a play is not a practice. No one is practicing racism in this situation. It is a depiction set in a specific historical time. You can't change history. the real question should be, does it offend anyone (in the Netherlands, not the world, for it is a Dutch tradition), and does it or does it not promote racism by keeping this tradition alive?
+Arthur Moore the Swiss story is not related to the Dutch festival. Black Pete was added around 1850 and represents the idea people had at that time of an exotic servant.
The Netherlands (the small country, not the much larger empire with its colonies) didn't have experience with slaves and it was rare within the Netherlands to have seen a black person in the flesh.
Discrimination of black people was not a real issue at that time., but racist images were of course.
I know +Max Huijgen, I know. I just meant to say that basically now it is admittd that it is supposed to be a black person. It's funny to see how a lot of Dutch people bend it all sorts of ways to deny that Zwarte Piet us a racist caricature.
Ah +Brendan Thesingh Irony was used in the making of your comment and I totally missed it 🙂
No you mistake me.
I said it definately is influenced by the look of black people. Is that racist?! I didn't realise that portraying a black person was racist today. If you think it's racist then fine, but trust me, you do not speak for the Dutch. As a child, and even up until this hilarious debate started, I did not look at it as a racist thing. In fact, Zwarte Piet is like character in a story, a person, not a race. He has a role to play in the story. You know what would be racist? If he was chained up, if he was in rags, if he was beaten. But he isn't, in fact, he's more popular than Sinterklaas because he's the one that brings the joy where Sinterklaas is too serious. But, if a joyful character who happens to be black you find racist, then I think you should be looking at yourself, because you obviously see a distinction between black and white people far more than most of us
+Arthur Moore Pretty well said. Thanks.
Right on the mark +Blair Warner that this is not about retro-actively blaming the Dutch from the 19th century, but about the here and now of these festivities.
Is the Black Pete of last year still acceptable? No, hence the new proposal. Is this one better? I say no as it modernizes the old stereotype by which it reinforces it.
Portraying people through makeup, clothes, jewelry and a heavy Surinam accent as black people in a helper role is definitely racist +Arthur Moore That was the easy question.
That I don't speak for the Dutch is remarkable. Who does? I'm Dutch, I have my say, but most of all I listen to my friends in the Netherlands who cringe every year when this stereotype is promoted again.
Zwarte Piet is a caricature of a black person. A bumbling buffoon. That is a form of racism. That it is not intended as racist does not mean that it is not. Black and white people in The Netherlands have been complaining about this since the thirties. And the last three years it has become more vocal. If Zwarte Piet was a black devil before then he can easily change to a purple elf. There is no need to let him be black or brown other than to represen a person of African descent for some unapparant reason. And that is racist since you won't let go go of the whole idea.
+Catherine Maguire I can give my half a say here. In my humble opinion, intent will always give way to perception when it comes to racism. Was the intent of this tradition to proliferate racism? I don't believe so. Can it easily be perceived that way by black people? Yes it can and most often will. What is the value-add in retaining the black-face in lieu of elves? If this question cannot be readily answered, then the best course of action is to change the tradition.
Your succint summary should be at the heart of the debate in the Netherlands +Le Andre' Ward
+Le Andre' Ward No value add. It's just a tradition, and traditions are hard to let go of. But, they can, and should in some cases, as in this one.
Thanks for the tag in +Catherine Maguire and your point for doing so.
For me, I don't know enough about ethnic relations or the experience of Black people in the Netherlands to say if Black people there would be offended but based on what +Brendan Thesingh said, it sounds like it would be offensive to Black and White people in county.
I will say though that generally speaking, dressing up like someone and engaging in buffoonery is obviously and intentionally NOT flattering.
I just did tnx +Catherine Maguire
Added +Catherine Maguire
I'm in agreement with +Le Andre' Ward.
I once saw a guy here on G+ celebrate Halloween dressed as JayZ. He was a white guy from Oakland, who wore one of the same outfits that JayZ has worn, wore black face, made his hair like JayZ and everything. And because his lips were naturally thick also, he nailed it! Looked just like JayZ. I wasn't mad, or even offended by that, because he had done so well in planning it, and the most important part, it wasn't done out of malice, just merely fun for the holiday. he was just a huge fan of JayZ.
I think I'm probably the only one out of my peers who doesn't get offended by this as much. I do know why the stigma is there, but I also know that by continuing to feed it, it will continue to live.
It also depends on the culture. Some people think that wearing a Dia de Los Muertos mask, or dressing as a Geisha is racist and offensive. I don't, but don't think that's my call to make.
Welcome all…
I think that it can be harmful to someone that takes it that way. The intent is never truly known and confirmed. I have no problem with tradition. I know tradition can change. But some people do not feel that way. I also dislike when tradition is used as a end all be all way of doing things.
If someone wants to continue to celebrate it why should I stop them? If they are attempting to force me to agree to their tradition then I have a right not to agree. It is only when they force me that I have a problem.
I know many people want to do the right thing but sometimes the right thing is to let people pick on their own what is right or wrong. As long as it is not directed at someone to hurt them why do we need to make a issue out of people thinking or feeling different?
+Catherine Maguire so by your last comment, can I take that to mean that you didn't agree with mine? If so, I'm just wondering why I was then tagged in this?
This is a hard one +Catherine Maguire, because where do you draw the line between tradition/folklore/caricatures/inclusiveness/bias/etc? Mainly by the intended effect of the action, not just the action itself.
1. When the tradition was established and has run for decades, if not centuries, opinion/permission was not sought on how to represent Petey.
2. An action that offends, may not have been done with malice but ignorance of it's effect is not an excuse.
The issue as I understand it is:
– Most Petey's don't produce the amount of melanin required for the role naturally and have to fake it. (Dress up).
Petey character represents a period in human history that no one should really celebrate but should never forget. (Historical context and I think the rub).
+Max Huijgen, is there some more back story to this? May I please have a link or some other reference as I've never heard if Black Pete.
My apologies, and I'll just mute this now. I just don't particularly like when someone posts something like this with no references to what they said. I only asked for info ONCE. And I've given my response and stick by it so there's nothing else to say. Thanks for tagging me 🙂
+Catherine Maguire it honestly is outside my hands.
To me I am not offended BUT I am not in the environment that this happens.
I am a bit more open to the idea that people should be allowed to feel how they feel. It is their choice to miss out on whatever they miss out on.
+Catherine Maguire I am not upset with your inquiry. I find it valid.
I seen your exchange. I have my opinion. I just tend to share it and not stress/struggle with folks agreeing or disagreeing with it.
I think everyone needs to participate with these discussions. That is the only way to change it.
We have a similar topic here in the US behind the name of a American Football team named "Redskins". Some people are offended and some people are not offended. But as long as the offended group is oppressed they will never be able to be heard on why they are offended.
+Catherine Maguire I get exactly what you are doing. If I make a post about women's or LGBT issues I try to get people if that grow to respond because although I know what intolerance feels like, I don't know what that particular brand feels like. I think it important to hear perspectives from those closest and most affected.
I tend to lean towards a policy of "least offensive first" so for instance even though I am part American Indian, I don't find it as offensive as other issues but I also would say if the majority of that group does find it offensive I see nothing wrong with changing the name.
I want to also reiterate the sentiment about using tradition to maintain the ways of old. That is truly a bunch of crap. In the US we constantly hear people who like waving around the confederate flag use that one. Every so often you'll see folks waving around swastikas. Looks like black face in the Netherlands ranks too.
You have to be pretty f'd up in the head to want to hold onto old ideas that are offensive to entire groups of people. Such people deserve to go the way of the dodo bird if they are not willing to change.
btw, +Max Huijgen and I were already connected 😉
It's interesting that changing your hair colour isn't controversial but changing your skin colour is. It seems that dressing up as another human being isn't offensive until you dress up as human being of another race.
Like racial barriers mustn't be crossed.
It hurts people. The US baseball team name, Washington Redsk,,s hurts people, who have let it be known it causes them pain.
+Niek Beaujean The thing is not that they dress up as negroes. The "point of pain" as the Dutch call it, is the way these Black Petes act (childish, mischievous, do all kind of dangerous 'monkey like' acrobatics) and the seemingly lopsided relation with their "boss" (yes, they are servants).
Personally, I don't give a damn about the whole discussion since with my height an appearance not many people ever had the courage to call me Black Pete to my face. I do however, think its a empty discussion since the Dutch community has some issues that are deeper and more complex that really need addressing.
I'm interested in your further thoughts +Irving Drommond as I'm wondering myself what makes this relatively small and easily solvable problem such a big deal in the Netherlands.
The resistance against change is huge and it looks like the Black Pete issue is actually a deeper one.
When the UN seemed to be involved in the matter (not really, but the Dutch thought so) I noticed that resentment against foreign influences was an important pillar under the 'keep Peter this way' drive.
+Max Huijgen are we speaking of the majority in action or the majority in voices?
Many people often do not care about things and will not speak either way but the minority will lead the way and not the majority.
Not a racial expression but a populace discussion.
I'm not sure +Calvin Henderson but afaik the majority of the Netherlands wants to keep the old (pre makeover) Pete.
The minority is constantly ridiculed or confronted with… racism. (suggestions to leave the country)
+Max Huijgen hmm. So it seems like many people in this country want to keep their traditions strong. This is based on actions of many and not actions of few.
As harsh as it sounds one can make the choice to live in it and accept it, live in it and try to change them or move out.
I think that it is noble to fight the good fight but it is also noble to move on to somewhere you can be appreciated.
I cannot say what I would do.
Not much else to add +Max Huijgen
As a child growing up on the former Netherlands Antilles, we celebrated "San Nikolas" as any other Dutch city or province. Nobody frowned upon the fact that Black Pete resembled a negro since their way of acting had nothing to do with 'our ways of doing things'. Black Pete was portrayed by black men with black paint on, so not much to talk about. Things changed (for some) when studying in Holland tho. Imagine the surprise of the more sensitive among us to see 'white folks' disguised as 'black folks' running around doing stuff that no decent mother would approve of their son doing!
All in all, it was and is with dual feelings that the most blacks look at this; with fondness of those times when you were little and ran away when Pete came to put you in the sack and with some amount of melancholy since you see 'your' people parodied. Some don't care, but others do and those who do speak out about it. Most kids are smart enough to see through the whole disguise and those who don't and run around making black people out for 'Black Pete', are generally imprinted by their parents (at least you know they discriminate).
Personally, I don't care too much since as I said before there are much deeper issues at play (for instance, how NL treats its former colonies or better, denies them a better future) that need to be addressed instead of how Black Pete looks. Maybe if we address those, we won't be have to worry about how things look.
Tnx +Irving Drommond Apart from a tan from the Spanish sun, I'm white. Caucasian to be clear. However it annoys me that we / they keep on celebrating it like no time passed.
We do have former colonies and gone are the days of our innocence. We can no longer deny knowing there are black people out there, we can no longer act like they are aliens like they probably were in the thirties.
I'm annoyed that instead of changing the celebration, we changed the image of Pete into a look-a-like of the Surinamese including the oh so funny accent of these days.
We know perfectly well people are hurt by it, so why not change it and make it into an all inclusive children party.