Under most Western laws children can't legally have a tattoo whatever their parents decide but little boys are commonly (33%) circumcised.
If we want to protect children from irreversible damage by the ideas of their parents we should of course just ban religion 😉
Mental damage aside: shouldn't we stop all physical mutilations of children no matter what the underlying idea? Wikipedia reveals that lots of countries (and US states) forbid placing tattoos on minors no matter what their parents think. However these same laws usually allow irreversible male circumcisions.
Why don't we stop genital mutilations regardless of gender and whatever the underlying belief system? Nowadays you can laser a tattoo away, but no word about 3D-printing a missing foreskin.
If skin is sacrosanct why then is foreskin excluded? #Politics
I agree with your point, but you've already answered your question: because religion.
In Spain (and other Latin countries), girls get their ears pierced just days old.
Especially since one of the explenations still are hygienic ones – goodness I think learning to wash it right can't be that hard; )
No one cuts off ears because they are hard to clean…Yes. It needs to end.
+Daniela Huguet Taylor I know and resisted that in case of my daughter, but at least it's not irreversible. The piercing disappears within weeks of not using it.
Good point +Carole Rigonalli
Butts aren't hygienic as well…..
+Max Huijgen I haven't worn earrings for months on end, and still have the holes. Apart from that, I am against it because since ears grow, the hole can become displaced/not centered, the baby can rip the stud out and/or swallow it, suffer an infection… All apart from the fact that she didn't get to choose that body modification.
While there might be hypocrisy in certain laws, when it comes to religion, I would tend to mind my own business. If you don't understand it, fine. If you don't believe in it, fine. But unless it infringes upon the rights of the child, don't infringe upon the religious rights of the parents.
Let people be different. Will we next stop ritualistic and cultural tattoos, scarring, etc just because it isn't part of our worldview?
I've never heard a man utter the phrase, "geez, I wish I had my foreskin".
Agree. If adults want to mutilate their body with tattoos and piercings, that's their own choice. But children should be protected against irreversible mutilations in the name of religion, regardless of which religion.
Go have a discussion with some of these religionists (awesome nonword) it is truely scary the power that these people give other people
+David Kutcher I think mutilating a person's genitals is about as "infringing" as one can imagine. That one would do it to a child is horrific.
Plus, if you have your child's ears pierced at infancy, you can't use it as a reward for responsible behavior when she's a teenager.
It's not always done for religious reasons (in the US, it's quite common – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision#United_States )
Data from a national survey conducted from 1999 to 2002 found that the overall prevalence of male circumcision in the United States was 79%.[32] 91% of boys born in the 1970s, and 83% of boys born in the 1980s were circumcised.
+M Sinclair Stevens and +Hayo Jongbloed call it mutilation, in my religion it's part of a covenant with God. And what you think of that part of my religion is irrelevant, as it's my Right. I'll refrain from judging aspects of your religion, whatever it may be.
In the U.S I'm mostly informed by parents that they did it for hygienic reasons.
My goodness – there must be a waste mountain of foreskin somewhere in the US!
+Anton Theunissen :
After sixty years, a Rabbi decides to retire. Taking the box of foreskins he has collected over the years of doing circumcisions, he goes to a leather goods manufacturer and says to the man, "Can you do anything with these?"
The man says, "No problem, come back in two weeks."
After two weeks the rabbi returns to the shop, and is presented with a wallet. In total dismay, he says to the craftsman, "After sixty years, the best you can do is a wallet?"
The man replies, "Don't worry, just rub it a few times and it will grow into a suitcase."
There are many studies that show at least modest medical benefits and WHO officially recommends it in Africa as a way of helping to combat the spread of HIV.
Great response +David Kutcher but on the subject of religion:
Your religion insists on circumcision, but Buddha and Hindu religion allow, even encourage tattoos as an expression of religious belief.
Shouldn't tattoos be allowed as just another religious expression?
+Max Huijgen yes, it should, and most likely would be if challenged in court. That it is not law might not reflect established precedent.
Chopping off penises would be even more effective against HIV +Alex Grossman …
Luckily the World Health Organization didn't realize it 🙂
+Brandt Hambrick Then you didn't listen well enough.
There do exist programs, in the US no less, to try to get the foreskin back into a usable form. It is tricky though, and usually not a complete solution. The reason for why these men want it back is usually cited as sexual – having the foreskin removed is typically said to reduce sensitivity and a lesser sexual experience (I'm a bit hard pressed to understand exactly how they've come to this conclusion/information, but I think it has to do with grown and sexually active men getting circumcised.)
Personally I think the hygienic reasoning (it really is easy to clean, and, well, far from terrible) is just a ruse to reduce fapping which is frowned upon in certain religions. When that is said, circumcision can probably remove the possibility for ballooning, a fairly common affliction for young boys. However, training of moving the foreskin up and down (fact) reduce the chance for it, and can even remedy it if it happens. If it doesn't a very quick, non-destructive incision fixes it.
Lol. .. I feel guilty for laughing so hard at your comment +Max Huijgen but it's so very very true…
and it was a stupid study because sending the guy to wash himself would do the same just as washing the had before delivering a baby helps to prevent mothers death… simple as that it could be.
Why do Americans get circumcised? It just reinforces the fact that the USA was populated by religious nut-jobs who were ostracised in the civilised world.
+David Kutcher You have a right to practice your religion on yourself. Mutilate your body. Self-flagellate. Tattoo or don't. Whatever. What you do not have is the right to violate another person's body. Slaves. Wives. Children. Other human beings do not belong to you.
It's a non-issue issue.
Social instead of religious motives are a huge factor in the US +Bob Marshall
Peer pressure on your foreskin in the locker room …
Does circumcision prevent fapping? +Lars Ivar Igesund
Did the great 2014 fappening just miss the US as circumcision is close to 100% there?
it's a non tissue issue +John Hardy didn't vote for Abbott
+M Sinclair Stevens I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. And it's not about belonging to me. And thank you for kindly equating my religious practices and rights to slavery.
+Max Huijgen Good question, really. I'm not willing to test the hypothesis myself though.
"I respect what the Creator has made and all, I just think he missed a spot."
Well then what about an on and off button for menstrual;)
They used to belive that the tonsilles are for nothing… and the same with many other body parts…
+Carole Rigonalli yet we don't send infants in to get tonsils, appendixes, and tailbones removed. Consistency!
Well in the 50's tonsilles where removed just so because they where considered a piece without function… I'm just saying that time and knowledge are two parables that change…
I don't really see the issue +Max Huijgen I was circumcised at 4 years old for medical reasons. I don't recall any problems, I don't have any traumas, and I don't experience any problems because of it. If anything, the ladies seem to appreciate any endurance effects. 😉
Like most things related to kids, most problems arise when adults create the problem and project those problems on the kids. They create the problems that otherwise the kids wouldn't even be aware of.
What about when it is based on culture and self-identification and not religion? Say neck rings that meet some ideal sense of beauty? Surgery to fix "deformities" that might not impact function but "look bad"-do these not exist?
Say ear shape? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20453717/
Putting infants to sleep on their backs to reduce SIDS but that might alter cranial shape? http://m.pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/128/6/1236.full
Whose worldview gets to decide what is right for others/everyone?
+Carole Rigonalli and in the seventies, a lot of hippies did drugs. We could just let evolution rule out whatever isn't necessary. But then, that wouldn't go well with religion.
+Jake Sharman the difference is that circumcision does not leave any negative effects that will chase the boy for life. Cutting a girls clit does.
+Jake Sharman my barometer is pretty simple: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You have a right to your religion, as well as from religion. So long as your rights do not take away another's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, why is it your issue? So yes, female genital mutilation is wrong as is impinges their right to happiness. I am not putting any one in charge, I am following my religious preferences as my right.
And to correct you, there is no female circumsion in Judaism. It is not part of the religion at all. None. The only instances known were amongst ethiopean Jews, and it was cultural, not religious, and abandoned when they emigrated to Israel.
Does it regrow +Gijs van Dijk?
From Wiki:
British Columbia resident Paul Tinari was held down and circumcised at the age of eight in what he stated was "a routine form of punishment" for masturbation at residential schools. Following a lawsuit Tinari's surgical foreskin restoration was covered by the British Columbia Ministry of Health. The plastic surgeon who performed the restoration was the first in Canada to have done such an operation, and used a technique similar to that described above.[8][9]
+Jake Sharman I'm sorry, but you can't cite Intact America and claim to be open for discussion.
I am all for sexual mutilation as long as the kids can do it to their parents when they turn 18.
33% in western countries? Are you sure? Maybe in the USA, but not the western mean.
+Max Huijgen Plenty of non-religous types circumsized. Sorry, but the "it's religion" argument doesn't, to pardon the phrase, cut it.
+Víktor Bautista i Roca 33% worldwide according to Wiki. Much higher in the US, much lower in Europe.
Scroll up +Edward Morbius I'm aware of what I call the 'locker room shame' argument in the US.
+Jake Sharman show me documented authoritative proof of any jews using Judaism as their justification for female circumcision.
+Max Huijgen Still doesn't cut it.
+Jake Sharman we both know it is not part of Judaism. So don't make statements that it is. And yes, I see a difference. You do not. You're trying to extrapolate, I am not.
I think its a horrible practice. You need to baptize the kid for your religious reasons, fine, but don't cut off part of his sexual biology without consent. Have a little confirmation ritual when he is 18 if you're so sure no one would refuse.
I've dated un-circers, who try to stretch what remains back. its not at all the same. The mucous membranes die and get scarred. It's obviously a mutilation to anyone that's seen what they're supposed to look like, or experienced how they're supposed to work when properly protected by your body's own gear.
I'm all for banning medically unnecessary circumcision of children, but you know damn well that Jews will treat any such ban as a direct attack on their bullshit religion.
+Matthew Graybosch and the fact that you call Judaism a "bullshit religion" betrays an incredible bias on your part.
+Alex Grossman, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. are also bullshit religions, but you can be an adherent of any of those without being circumcised — though some Muslim scholars would cite certain hadith to argue otherwise.
I didn't mention them because I didn't think they were germane to this discussion, but let's get something straight. I despise all religion, not just Judaism.
I just thank the gods that I was born in a civilized country and not America so I have managed to remain complete and I would not/could not even contemplate having it any other way. I love living in America but I'm very very glad I was born out of the reach of the bloody AMA.
This is hours late from the U.S. – what the heck is fapping? I guess the 2014 fappening did pass us by!
I'm not sure what the actual percent of religion circumcision is but most of the cut guys I've seen were the common Christian-light of America, and in most cases it was just done as a matter of course, not a mindful decision on anyone's part, much less the person whose penis was cut.
The entire argument is flawed, based on the fact that parents dont have a right to decide whats best for thier children. Who is to say what is nessisary and what is not if not the parents? The government?!? Lol If a doctor approached a new mother and told her that the only way her child would funtion normally is surgery to correct a deformity, I dont know of a single parent that would say "I dont feel right about making this decision without my babys consent. What do u think little Brenda?" No the mother would make the decision for the child based on what she feels is right based on her own beliefs and experiences.
+Matthew Graybosch There's nothing wrong with being an atheist. However, there is something with being disrespectful and rude. Disagree with people's religions, fine. Don't be needlessly abrasive – it won't win you much.
+Jake Sharman First, I never discussed religion, so I would appreciate it when discussing my points you leave that hornets nest out.
Second, it would help your argument if you had a clue about what you are talking about. Circumcision does not in any way shape or form fundamentally change how the penis works. It does not even desensitize the penis itself. The one thing that does happen is because after circumcision part of the head of the penis is always exposed, the nerves continuously stimulated. This overstimulation isn’t perceived as pleasant, so the brain ignores the signals, much like people that suffer from chronic pains have a higher pain threshold. It is a neurological response, not a physical defect caused by circumcision.
And please don’t give me BS like ‘as far as you know’. As you could have read in my first response, I was circumcised for medical reasons when I was very young. Since it was actually done to me, I ought to know a little bit about what it does and doesn’t do, don’t you think?
As for tattooing children, I have no issue with that if that is the culture of the people. In fact, that is exactly what happens in some parts of Africa and Asia. Some groups go even as far as applying scar tattoos, where little cuts are made all over the body and rubbed with charcoal to form protruding scar tissue as lines on the body. I have no issue with that at all. In fact, I rather have children in these communities being included and embracing their culture and heritage than some western bigot coming in with western ideas and kids ending up as outcasts or parkas to their own families and having no sense of belonging or culture.
Someone also mentioned somewhere they had friends who were circumcised and major issues with it. No offense, but they probably had someone like you telling them they are disfigured and can’t function like a normal man at a formative age for that to have happened. There is simply no physical reason why a circumcised man functions any different or less than one that is not. It is just plain nonsense.
That all said, I do not personally agree with any actions to children that are not medically necessary, including those by religions like circumcision. Or like calling kids that are ‘busy’ ADD and feeding them prozac. I would never do that to my children, should I have any at some point in time. I am also not religious, but I would never in my life have the audacity to tell someone else their religion is retarded and they can’t do something they believe is right with every fiber of their body, just because I don’t agree with it. You do not have the right to tell anyone what to do or not to do. Period. If you live your life by example and show respect to views you do not share, you are more likely to be an influence than by telling someone they can’t do something while they can’t even relate to your reasoning.
We define in our own respective countries which behavior we find acceptable through democracy or other means and the laws we define. If we, as a country, we do not want circumcision for anything other than medical reasons that is great and that would make our country a little better. However, you do not have the right to go and tell other countries, communities, cultures how to make their decision just because you don’t agree. They should be shown the same respect we demand for making their own decisions.
+Max Huijgen no it does not grow back.
+Alex Grossman, don't tell me how to be an atheist, or tell me to feign respect for beliefs I despise. We're not friends, so you don't have the privilege of giving me unsolicited advice.
+Shaker Cherukuri though circumcision isn't usually the only solution to phimosis. Stretching exercises (possibly with the help of steroid creams to prevent inflammatory issues) have helped many men overcome their phimosis.
Personally I find it strange that a deity who is supposed to have created humans, then tells them to cut of part of their bodies. Is the foreskin a bug in the intelligent design that needs to be fixed at a specific moment in their lives?
Seems a bit fallible.
Another possibility is that certain great apes had all kinds of early ideas when they had just barely developed intelligence. Thousands of years later the said apes are slowly beginning to find alternative ways of thinking about the matter.
For more information, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae