Interesting experiment to walk around in a park dressed up as Black Pete / Zwarte Piet, the helper of 'Sinterklaas' who in December goes around handing out presents to children.
Eighty percent of the Dutch population fails to understand that people are hurt by this stereotype. A vocal minority defend it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…
The discussion in the Netherlands is so heated that during the traditional parade of Sinterklaas some of the Black petes will actually be armed policemen; painted black of course.
Does this look like a proper children festivity or should it be transformed into a more inclusive, race neutral event? #Politics
There's indeed a lot of misunderstanding. Especially neglecting the part of slavery. Both sides though are failing though. It feels like a complex political decision that needs to be made where both sides are way to extreme to fail and see the solution in between. It needs to change for sure, but gradually I think. Most mindsets of Dutch people are so used to the tradition that changing it right now would explode society in a bad manner.
This actually doesn't prove a whole lot about ZP, it mostly proves that proto-Americans also stupidly project their cultural (ex)tradition onto a superficially similar but unrelated phenomenon. I could in much the same matter "prove" in Tel Aviv that Buddhists are genocidal Jew-haters because they do a lot with swastikas.
Also this, I clipped a bit for clarity.
Eighty percent of the Dutch population […] defend it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…
I'm sure public self-gratification over your superior moral standards is fun and all, but isn't it a bit low to paint all the ZP fan boys and girls with this same brush? Even for you?
As long as there is such a thing as political correctness there will be a divide between races. Move on! We are people no matter our color.
Edited the text +Marinus Calamari to clarify it's only a vocal minority:
Eighty percent of the Dutch population fails to understand that people are hurt by this stereotype. A vocal group defends it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…
"Eighty percent of the Dutch population not only fails to understand that people are hurt by this stereotype, they defend it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…"
Now you are being subjective. Opponents have also been bombarded with death wishes. And I'm sure that Russian people are also hurt by this stereotype of an English secret agent called "James Bond". Will the people of the UK please make James a woman and let her fuck Vladimir Putin…
I would actually rephrase that like this: "A vocal minority defend it so aggressively that…"
Okay, +Max Huijgen good sport!
To me (as a European origin Dutchy) it's quite an easy situation…
Do they look like the pictures from our slavery past? YES
It it intended to as discrimination? NO (for the large majority, exceptions always exist)
Are people hurt by it? I didn't know till last year, but apparently YES
Do children really care? NO (they believe in the f*c*in easer bunny…)
So, to make most people happy (except those who wish to keep every thing the same)
I suggest: https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5510/11218525603_7c30ab5c84_z.jpg
And boy do I sympathize. Seems like there's a lot of this kind of thing — where 80% are apathetic or non-understanding about some issue and "27%" (this is our teaparty number :-P) are noisy and aggressive about it 😛
I wonder if this is where the idea for Papa Lazaroo originally cane from?
You're My Wife Now! – The League of Gentlemen – BBC comedy
In cases such as this, it is irrelevant to ask 'traditionalists' if they intend to hurt anyone. The only valid question is to the black community; do you feel offended or not? Case closed.
and +Russell Brand was just walking through the park???
That show only hurt people called Dave 😉 +Russell Davison
(did the BBC ever produce comedy without cross dressing or is that a UK obligation?
There are people offended by it but they're told 'to adjust to the culture of this country' … +Per Siden after which these same people state it's totally not meant as racism :")
I know exactly what you mean +Max Huijgen . It was only since we left the UK in 1999 that I noticed that the most popular UK shows involve much cross-dressing. It may come from the UK pantomime tradition whereby the prince is often a girl and the wicked lady is a man!
+Per Siden In cases such as this we can do without the "reasoning" of people from the Stupid-Left part of the political spectrum.
Being offended by something is not a good enough reason on it's own to abolish something, especially not if you live in a society that also features Christians and Muslims, I may add. Because in that case I might as well abolish myself on about 237 accounts of being offensive to their religious sensitivities.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with the concept of changing ZP, in fact I'm in favor of it, but I prefer a more sound method than arbitrarily deciding things should go because they offend people.
Dutch traditions have no relevance to Londoners, or anyone else who don't have a clue about another nation's history or culture. It looks like this was just a stunt to support a specific agenda.
+Paul Wooding The input of foreigners can be helpful in seeing into one's cultural blind spots, and the Dutch do have a rather big one considering ZP. However, this is simply English people projecting their own culture onto another, and not in any way constructive. Especially since the "explanation" of the phenomenon is rigged to make ZP as racist as possibly can without resorting to outright confabulation.
This is not an interesting experiment, it's gutter journalism disguised as a social experiment, indeed to support a certain agenda.
When in Rome…
+Per Siden Seriously? That's such insane political correct racism it's almost unbelievable. "Oh, you poor black people feel offended? Well, of course we will change our tradition to avoid hurting your vulnerable feelings. That is because… well, you are black you know?"
I feel offended about things, you know what I do? I just shrug it off and move on with my life with a smile on my face.
+Paul Wooding The Netherlands counts millions of people who didn't grow up in this tradition.
Looking through 'truly foreign eyes' can be helpful to understand them as well.
+Max Huijgen To those people: "So you came to build a new life in my country?
Please tell me more about how we need to change our traditions to fit your needs."
We stopped burning witches as well +Nloveru Just a minority of older women…
Traditions change and usually under outside pressures.
You know what democracy is +Max Huijgen? If 80% of the population doesn't have any desire for change, than tough shit for those that do. Majority wins. Just because a very loud minority whines about it, doesn't mean anything needs to be done. We don't get ruled by the minority in this country. And it doesn't give you the right to ruin a kids party.
If you are an immigrant and feel offended, I'm sure you picked the country for a reason. So I'm equally sure you can suck it up for 2 weeks a year. No place is perfect and I ain't bitching about your customs that may offend me either.
If you're a foreigner that doesn't live here and feel the need to criticize my country over something you don't have a clue about, stfu and keep your self righteous bs to yourself. I'm sure there's enough issues and problems in your own country that is better deserving of your attention.
I'm sick and tired of this bs 'discussion', that's really not a discussion but an attempt of a handful of people forcefully imposing their views upon 16 million people give hell or high water without giving a damn about forever staining an experience of young kids that should only know fun, laughter, candy and presents during this period.
+Max Huijgen Wait, I must have missed the part where we are burning people with the Sinterklaas festivities.
This keeps coming back: just because people feel offended, doesn't mean something actually is offensive and most of all: it doesn't mean they should be given everything they want to stop them from feeling offended. Being offended is not a free ticket to get what you want.
+Gijs van Dijk
Call it democracy as much as you like but it doesn't justify something that clearly isn't just. This is what brain washing does; Tell people for years that something is normal, traditional, and gezellig and they won't see the obvious, and they will want to hang on to it. If 80% of the people want to paint the grass blue that is not automaticaly a good or smart thing to do, now is it? Zwarte Piet just isn't right.
And we're not even discussing the lies that all adults are supposed to support that come with it. I am not doing it, people have no right to drag me into it.
+Akaija Lavendula Nobody is dragging you into it. Isn't it great? Such freedom to do as you please? So please don't drag us into your racist political correct world view.
You value colour of skin as something of importance, which makes you a racist. Leave me out of that please.
Shall we all change Santa Claus's apparence too, you know he always white. Im no racist but seriously after censoring Oliver Twist this political correctness needs to stop. Mind you there is a 400year long white slavery history too, wich actually was over way after Black slavery, i dont see anyone screaming about that anywhere. Hell even planking been labeled racist and tied to slavery…
Yes, it's that new phenomenon of "being offended" and expecting everyone else to change.
I don't believe anyone is trying to ruin the fun for the children. To the contrary. More children should be able to enjoy it.
You don't have an inherent right to not be offended. That's the bottom line yet people act like they do.
+Per Siden​​ In cases such as this, it is irrelevant to ask 'traditionalists' if they intend to hurt anyone. The only valid question is to the black community; do you feel offended or not? Case closed.
I do not think it's that easy. You can't just forbid something whenever someone or some group is offended. That way you can't draw images of a certain prophet, or state that your god is the only real god, or state that women have a right to choose what they do with their body. Hell, you could never even comment on how good someone is looking if anyone else is around that doesn't feel confident about he of she is looking.
Besides that, there is nothing wrong with being of any skin colour, nor (imho) as dressing up, painting your face and giving joy, candy and gifts.
+Max Huijgen​​
I think that the discussion is getting really intense, because us cloggies really love our "right" to do things our way, say what we want and live by our culture. That is however under increasing pressure, and our Sinterklaas festival is a prime example of this. People are getting fed up with the Americanization and Islamization of our culture and legislation and are therefore getting more vehement in defending the traditions they've grown up with.
+Noze P. It's not a coincidental relation. The role of Pete is that of an extreme stereotype.
He used to be a bully when I was young. That has changed over the years. I can't see why his stereotype can't be changed. It wouldn't make any difference to the actual fun of the Sinterklaas celebration.
Two comments have been restored by me. They were hidden by Google; don't think I'm censoring on opinion.
It's not about being political correct; hell I'm not, but about a childrens party which needs adjustments to include all children. Major difference.
And yes +Bart Sintenie the aggressive resistance against changes is no doubt based on resistance against globalization.
Police dressed up as black petes because there are expectations of violence against the 2014 innovation of Petes in different colors in Gouda…… Madness.
In France we dont celebrate santa, however in hungary we do and with additional Krampus (that suppose to scare the hell out of kids). Most times they are also dressed up in black disguised as a devil type beast +Max Huijgen, but there is no way anyone can tie that to anything related african issue. Every country has its own cultural things that another wont get anyway. Netherlands shouldnt be labeled anything for this, cause if there is one country ive seen in the world that is open to every culture and mild it into their own, is this country.
It's not really the children though +Max Huijgen​ that feel discriminated against, but a minority of the parents.
Just as it isn't just a children's party, but also a national/cultural celebration.
Still, some adjustments to go with the times wouldn't be bad, but Rainbow colours are a bit far fetched imho.
+Max Huijgen "…but about a childrens party which needs adjustments to include all children." Why would we want to have a childrens party called Sinterklaas if the man is outed as a slave keeper?
Reminds me of the where in some places, Sweden(?), they want to do away with nursery rhymes like 'Ba Ba Black Sheep' and change it to a rainbow sheep.
And some here are alleging you can't take political correctness too far.
Isn't it funny that in Belgium Sinterklaas/Santa Claus + Zwarte Piet/Black Pete are also celebrated but no one has a problem with it? There's not even a word about racism. Everyone just enjoys the tradition like they're supposed to.
+Noze P. I am Dutch. I know Krampus, they stand for generic dark evil forces, but Black Pete is closely associated with actual black stereotypes. A bit daft, making a mess of things, servants to Santa Claus.
After the influx of people from Surinam they even started to imitate that accent.
How do you know black children are not hurt +Bart Sintenie I have seen testimonials confirming it. Anecdotal of course, but isn't that sufficient to make changes?
And I can't see why the parents can't accept a different make up. The fun of Sinterklaas can't be in the connection to a black man?
+Janfrans Zuidema Sinterklaas is a slave keeper in every version, the Krampus is a slave to him too….only that goes back way before religion. the chains were introduced by Christians so to bound the devil bla bla
Contrived joke +Janfrans Zuidema Better arguments please.
+Max Huijgen i agree that the accent part is bad taste. Unfortunately you cant kill idiot on earth.
No +Noze P. but we can change traditions. That's actually the normal process. The change from black pete as a dangerous guy who would put children in a bag to carry to Spain changed within a very short timespan.
Black pete has huge lips, golden earrings, an afro wig, acts stupid. There is more than an accent.
+Noze P. "Sinterklaas is a slave keeper in every version, the Krampus is a slave to him too…." Great! Now we are talking about about a true form of racism that no one (even Max Huijgen: Better arguments please) gives a fuck about….
Slavery is the ultimate form of racism. Sinterklaas is the ultimate slave keeper. It's basically the Jimmy Savile of the Low Countries. And Max Huijgen and Noze P. are the BBC…
Read the end of sentence first maybe +Janfrans Zuidema ? You cant clearly put a pre Christian stuff on slavery account lol. The bound by chain the devil is an additional crap that came later so pagan tradition would be somewhat "Christianized" .
If you really want to make a difference, go __ yourself.
+Max Huijgen​ I've seen (on the telly, for what that is worth) and have grown up with coloured children dressing up and painting themselves as Zwarte Piet. They join in the celebration just as any other kid, why wouldn't they?
And I've seen kids (telly only) being forbidden to join up by their parents (because of the perceived racist element), effectively getting them discriminated against by their own parents and singling them out from the non-coloured kids….
From that, admittedly limited, experience I formed this conclusion.
I get your argument about it still being fun without a black man. But that's not what the multitude feel, they feel they do not discriminate, they feel they do not teach their kids to discriminate and suddenly they're being told they are and have been for ages. And instead of thinking whether or not this is how outsiders perceive this, they defend their own feelings that they never did, and attack those who accuse them of discrimination. They defend what they know is their truth, 'I never intended to discriminate, therefore I did not discriminate'. People are hurt by the accusations of being racist, and they're parents and grand parents being racist, just like people are hurt by their equally true feelings of being discriminated against and their children and (grand)parents being discriminated against.
And when people are hurt, they strike out…
In addition, by changing the tradition you admit that you were wrong in the past.
+Bart Sintenie
Funny thing that…when I hurt as you call it, I never wish people "into the gas-chambers", never call them "Black fucking monkey that should go back wherever the fuck [you] came from", never say "don't like our [white people's] tradition, then leave" to born and bred Dutch people, based on the combination of their opinion and the colour of their skin/ their name etc.
But these so called "not discriminating people" do.
Now why is that?
Maybe it is true that there is a racist current in Dutch society and always has been there?
I am Dutch and I see the racism every day, I live it, it must be addressed and rooted out.
You don't do that by making the pvv the biggest party, you do that by being honest and fighting against it.
+ArmageddonAfterparty​ neither do I, but there are always assholes. Don't judge the majority of our people for the actions of the very verbal few though.
Naturally there is a load of discrimination, but almost everyone feels they do not discriminate with this festival.
+Bart Sintenie I don't doubt there are colored children who like the festivities, but how many children (and their parents) have to feel hurt before we consider change?
When black pete was morphed into a friendly little helper of Santa Claus instead of a scary threat, this was done because a minority of parents and educators found it an image out of tune with modern times.
The overwhelming majority had no problem at all with the existing image. Traditions change all the time.
People perceive them as static, but they aren't.
I completely agree with +Bart Sintenie that we shouldn't accuse the majority of discrimination or racism.
It's not productive for the debate and you can't backdate history. With hindsight our attitudes against black people, jews, women, etc discriminated. So we changed them.
Our insights change; it doesn't make every man who in the fifties expected his wife to cook dinner into a sexist. Expecting it today though is sexist.
In ten years time this debate will be gone and when we see the 'old' images we will fringe and realize it was a change long overdue.
But no, the majority who isn't yet ready for change are not racists. They are bad listeners to the sign of the times and not as inclusive as they could be of minorities.
Large part of the confusion in the Netherlands is the uneven distribution of ethnic minorities. The large cities are incomparable with the rest of the country so it will take some time for them to catch up.
Amsterdam should set the trend for change. I have no doubt the rest will eventually follow and be surprised when you remind them that they ever opposed change.
+Max Huijgen 'change' is a codeword for White GENOCIDE
1) Nobody is flooding Africa with millions of non-Africans and FORCE assimilating them.
2) Nobody is flooding Asia with millions of non-Asians and FORCE assimilating them.
3) This is happening in ALL White countries and ONLY White countries.
4) It's GENOCIDE!
Diversity is a GENOCIDAL SCAM
Diversity is a codeword for White GENOCIDE
It already always was race neutral, until an extremely small group of people claimed it was racist, while it isnt. I'm glad to see you do agree that it's not a racist stereotype or party at all. Good, because it indeed isnt.
It's a freaking kids party, no one ever even remotely thought of any link with slavery until a bunch of c***s started ruining it for the children, and made it look like all Dutch people are like "yay, it's that time of the year, we can have slaves again!!! Wooohooo, suppress the blacks, yayyyy!!!". Totally ridiculous. Yeah way to go guys, making children cry… But hey, just as long you can push your agenda it's for "the greater good", amirite?
The real racists so far are the people against "zwarte piet", especially that Gario dude. At least to the 80% of Dutch people you talk about: he is more than welcome, contrary to the persons who want to see him banned based on fabricated racism lies… Oh yes, that racism card makes a strong hand.
You know what's really ready for a change…? People claiming everything is racism. All you have to do is say "racist" and poof, you get everything done, even if you're only 0.0001% of the country population.
That racism card, that one is long overdue to get rid of. Only when there is real, true and proven racism should that word be used…
And you know why? Because actual racism is now overlooked. That's because the racism card is pulled out so much, that when there actually is a real racism problem: people start thinking "oh, racism card… Its probably not that bad". That's not what we want… Racism is a big problem, and people who pull it out for sh*t like this ensure that the real problems are not being taken care of anymore.
And yes, because that very small groups threatens to use violence against "zwarte piet": security measures are taken… Very sad, and just shows how insane that group of people really is… Uttering threats to usr violence near kids, how insane can you be!? And yet, you think they should be taken serious? Give me a break.
That really small group of terrorists are obviously rather dangerous, and cannot be taken serious at all.
On a sidenote, sure I can understand it might be hurtful to some people; although that's solely because they don't understand at all and are ill-informed about the very positive person "zwarte piet" actually is… He's not a slave, but if you're mistakenly convinced that he is: sure, I guess it can hurt.
… But even IF it was based on a slave… Do I care that they're offended? Hell no!
Why not? Because if we have to ban/change everything everytime an extremely small group of people feels offended: you can ban all festivities, all holidays, all music, all the movies, all religions, in fact: everybody should stfu and stay indoors… Lest not to offend anyone!!1! Ridiculous.
Everyone feels offended by something once in a while: DEAL WITH IT, stop crying. It's once a year. Don't like it? Go do something else that day. Stop shoving your worthless opinion down peoples throats while they just want to entertain their kids with a traditional party that has nothing to do with racism. Not even remotely…
Get back to focus on real world issues, not fabricated bs to get media attention.
Come to Ferguson, MO, this week, and you can tell the rioting Niggers how much you love them.
I can't believe this discussion is still there. The "minorities" you are talking about have caused people to see black pete as being something racist, while almost none of the people in the Netherlands ever had this in his or her mind. What Sunny does here is pathetic, showing Zwarte Piet to foreigners, pathetic because they know nothing about our party and are shocked, since it looks racist on the first eye. Just check Scheer's documentary and think about relativizing in your sad live of being a black Pete hater.
I'm surprised posts that use certain wording aren't automatically blocked/reported..
I'm glad Belgium is not involved in the current drama. I'm sure you can tear down all cultural & religious traditions one way or another.
You cant dictate how we choose to celebrate our holidays. How would you like it if we tried change your culture? I have many black friends who say black piet isnt racist so this whole discussion is about a group of cry babies who cant deal with white people painted black.
+Victorious I Oh my God the old "some of my best friends are black" line to pretend that you're not racist. Has it ever occurred to you that your imaginary 'black friends' might just be humoring you? I live in the Netherlands, and every Dutch person of color that I know is offended by the appearance of Zwarte Piet. However, they can't be bothered to get into discussions with white Dutch people about it as they get so angry and defensive. Your imaginary 'black friends' probably do the same with you.
+Victorious I When your tradition includes racism, sexism, animal cruelty (black pete, female genital mutilation, bullfighting) the word 'tradition' does not mean the end of the debate!
Sure +Simon Woolcot if Black people don't share your opinion about ZP, they must be uncles cq aunties Tom. Luckily they have you to think for them.
+Simon Woolcot
hahahaha you clearly do not know me. and dont humor me. they are lots of colored people that dont see a problem with black piet. there was even a funny song about it by some black dude. you can pretend all you want that all black people think that this is racist but it is not true.
+Ronald Dooper
well then there is no problem since my tradition doesn't do any of those!
+Simon Woolcot It's funny how on one hand you try to validate Victorious' claim, while on second hand you're butchering his argument with a nonsensical phony argument and placing blame on him for… making things up and suffering delusions? If anything, that is textbook "left-wing" debating.
I understand full well that people of colour can FEEL offended by these customs, however; I feel offended by plenty of customs and traditions in modern-day culture. Do I make a fuss about it? No, I accept that it's well beyond my power to change, and I ACCEPT it. Which is what this entire debate is secretly (yet obviously) about. It's about ACCEPTANCE, or rather; the lack of acceptance by the people who believe that as long as they bicker, and whine and nag long enough, they'll eventually get what they want.
Hm, the sad thing is that the origin of St. Nicolas is tainted because of the racism claim. Black pete are actually freed slaves by St. Nicolas helping him to spread goods among poor children.
That's all well and good, but I've watched the Sinterklaasjournaal and the Piets are portrayed as slow witted servants, almost afraid of the authority figure of Sinterklaas. It's racist, plain and simple.
+Per Siden And a large part of the black and colored community here in the Netherlands does not feel offended and even supports Black Peter. But we, alas, are mostly ignored in this discussion.
Well, I'm offended by the fact that muslims get to slaughter a goat in their backyard once a year. I think it's animal cruelty and it HAS TO STOP!
So now that I am offended by "The Feast of Sacrifice", as a minority, It might be possible to get that "tradition" out of the Netherlands as well you say?
I live in Amsterdam and have done so for over ten years. I've never seen any of my neighbors slaughtering goats. I have however seen white men in blackface running around, that bothers me a damn sight more than what people do with goats once a year.
+Bren Pompe Feel free to use the democratic rights of freedom of speech guaranteed to ALL residents of the Netherlands to start a campaign against it. Just as the people who are against ZP have done.
And then there's this. Apparently Britons are rather selective in their policor indignance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Morris
+Simon Woolcot Waaah! Muh- feewings. Feck off you damned degenerate. Drop DEAD.
Morris dancing is evolving as well. These are wise words:
Morris dancing is a living tradition, and like any tradition it survives by adapting and making itself relevant. Dancers are no longer begging farm labourers or miners – they now perform for fun instead of money. The music has changed too, bringing in influences from other genres. Even the accordion, a characteristic instrument associated with Morris, has only been part of the tradition since its invention roughly 100 years ago.
So given that Morris changes all the time, what is stopping us from making this particular modification? Many Border and Molly sides either do not paint their face or opt for alternative colours to black. The Border Morris side Boggarts Breakfast paint their faces blue. The Molly group Gog Magog use different bright colours, which for me contributes their wacky style. Others opt for patterns, such as Pig Dyke Molly, though their take could be seen as a reference to the rock band KISS.
From http://rs21.org.uk/2014/10/16/morris-dancing/
From the same article:
There are wide variety of different options for Morris sides who don’t want to be subject of this debate, or wish to make a gesture towards the sensitivities of racism. Our tradition is only in danger of dying out if we treat it like a fossil that is too brittle to evolve. It’s a strong, vibrant form of dance, and it will not be hurt or destroyed by wearing blue, green or purple on the face in place of black.
And that small change may be part of ensuring that Morris is a welcoming place for people of all ethnicities – and grows for generations to come. One of the dancers pictured with Cameron spoke to the Independent about her make-up. When asked why she used a black stripe rather than full black face paint, she replied: “In deference to my daughter-in-law. She’s very sensitive because she’s a black American and is a bit confused by it because it’s not an American tradition.”
Purple. Definitely purple.
In 2006 we had petes in the colors of the rainbow. Children loved it; adults protested and declared their love for a right wing nationalist party…
See, I think rainbow colors are a brilliant idea for this.
+Max Huijgen Oh that's right, you're exclusively "Away-With-Us" so you don't mind British fun-for-the-whole-family racism, and you simply cherry-pick some quotes to make it all go away so you can solely concentrate on ZP.
I would make them orange. That way we can reuse them with Koninginnedag too! Two flies in one catch 😉
In 2006 we had petes in the colors of the rainbow. Children loved it; adults protested declared their love for a right wing nationalist party…
Sure, because everyone who doesn't have a problem with ZP is a fucking Nazi. Subtle, that….
I'm more in favor of sooth smudges. That's where it was heading anyway before Quinsy Gario and his marry band of Hystericas tossed a bomb under the whole thing. I think it's unsalvageable by now, and will be torn to pieces by the Fuck-Off-To-Your-Own-Country Crowd on the one hand, and the ZP-is-worse-than-Hitler crowd on the other hand over the cause of the next decade or so.
+Marinus Calamari Morris dancing hahahaha. Oh you're funny. Morris dancing is carried out in a very small part of the UK. There are no national TV shows or Morris dancing blackface parades. Nor do the opponents of Morris dancing receive death threats as is common in the Netherlands where any Dutch people that speak out against ZP routinely receive threats. I lived in the UK for most of my life and only ever saw one set of Morris dancing, and they were not in blackface. Stop trying to change the subject which is about the Dutch national black face fetish.
+John Belarus maybe you should read what I wrote before you make a redundant comment, even my last comment strongly implies that I'm in favor of changing ZP.
And FYI ZP has been compared to among other things: lynching, slavery and even the holocaust. Especially Americans with their cultural fascism are good at comparing ZP fan boys and girls to everything up to and including Adolf H it seems.
+Russell Davison It's due to the insane, demonic Jews that run TV, and everything else, in the JewK.
+Max Huijgen
The opponents fail to realise that this have nothing to do with slavery. They are paid servants / assistants. If they actually read into the subject they would know.
They just assume these are slaves because they are black. Which is a racist thought. If a black man is a servant of a white man he is automatically to be considered a slave?
+Max Huijgen
Thats bullshit. Nobody liked the Rainbow Pieten. Children hated them, they want Zwarte Piet and they like him. Children like a fictional black character, how could that be in any way racist?
Also these colors made them to recognisable. Children could see who they were. The whole point of ZP is to be unrecognisable.
All those other colors are also totally unrealistic.
We don't have a true nationalist party.
Also if you look at how many people support ZP it goes above politics. A far majority support ZP, far more then the people that vote to right wing political parties.
Both left wing and right wing Dutch almost all support Zwarte Piet.
What is to be considered fascist is that a small minority is trying to enforce its views about ZP onto the majority.
Well to be honest. ZP is used in history as an example to slavery. That's kinda a known fact. So by saying ZP has nothing to do about slavery? Right now… Nope, but in the past for sure. To bad some decided in the past to misuse the ZP for their winning.
There is a confusion here over racism as intentional versus interpretation/experience.
Defenders of the frozen image of black pete think racism is only racist if it's an explicit ideology of superiority and inferiority.
People accusing Zwarte Piet of being a racist stereotype understand that racialized and negative intent, content, and consequences can amount to racism
That sounds a lot like "It's racism, when we arbitrarily decide it's racism." It's the sort of ideology that has the potential to lead to all kinds of fun stuff, like people being fired over the word "niggardly" for example. I suggest we leave that nonsense in the United States of Hysteria and choose for a more pragmatic approach here.
+Max Huijgen
how is a bunch of white people painting themselves black for an act played out for children. people dont want to change it because they like the way it is. there is nothing wrong with just a bunch of white man painting themselves black. nobody is saying negative stuff about black piet or black people while celebrating it.
+Gerben van Erkelens
not true. there are no official documents on where inspiration for black piet comes from. its open for interpatation and i can see what your mind makes of it.
+Noze P. , sorry to be a Party Pooper but the French most definitely do celebrate Père Noël every year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A8re_No%C3%ABl
Nope of course not…..
Our history books don't tell that in full extent, neither does our government. But other countries do manage to tell that part. That doesn't mean it's the full truth of course…. But most logically, considering the time etc. It is pretty close near the truth. I would even go that far to say it's similar as saying the rawegade massacre didn't happen.
I sincerely hope though there's an in between for this debate. Which both sides like. I know most kids won't care. My son says Piet to all people with those clothes… No matter what color.
+Victorious I Racism does exist in Dutch culture, so it isn't necessarily a good idea for people of the majority to dress up like people of a minority, even if most who do it have no secret agenda for doing so. I can imagine it makes groups of people uneasy. It even makes me a bit uneasy about the whole thing.
ZP has changed a lot of times before, so there really is no insurmountable obstacle in doing just that again. It's the pragmatic thing to do really.
It will always be a children festify. Ask the children who [spoiler] still believe if "zwarte piet" is a slave or a nigger. I know they whill say that "zwarte piet is zwarte piet" and that will always be that way. For all the grown-ups: He's black because of the chimney and "sinterklaas" saved the "pieten" from families with no money to give them a "happy" future.
that's all there is to know. I anyone thinks elsewhise, they can F*ck of to their own "apeland en daar lekker gaan huilen."
+Gerben van Erkelens OTOH why was a character, who was supposedly intended to portray a slave, not obviously portrayed as one during a time when slavery was still legal in parts of the kingdom? Why was there a need for minstrel shows in the 100% White Dutch society of medio 19th century.
We really don't know why Schenkman invented ZP, but I'm not at all convinced that he did it because he wanted a moralistic tale about race relations.
That doesn't matter +Marinus Calamari​. If I'm correct ZP was already "out there" before schenkman came along. I'm pretty much convinced he did invent a new form of ZP though for his and his people own winnings. Why? Because if I look at history… Every other country managed to get involved into such forms of race relations… I can't assume we were different during that time. That would sound unreal.
On the other hand. That's still from a distant past, the past shouldn't be leading here but the present. But somehow both sides can't really get rid of our (and their) history…
Whish I was a kid though, then all of this wouldn't even matter 👍😁
+Harry Trekbuis​ you know your proving the opponents points by writing the last sentence I hope…
+Gerben van Erkelens true. Maybe I was a bit hard, but it makes a point. The fest is a tradition and that's the way to keep it.
Also, I don't hear anyone saying that santa claus is abusing reindeer and driving slavery to those elves. Put it like that, and sinterklaas is better, because he uses a boat in stead of animals to get from A to B.
I know, I kinda hoped you were trying to make a point… The relation to real things grows the problem right now because most adults know elfs never existed ;-). ZP is way more real than that which makes the tradition also more enjoyable to celebrate for children I think.
+Russell Davison pére noel is the one bringing gift at xmas, its not celebrated as ST. Nicolas whos santa at the 6th. Sorry to poop your party pooping 🙂
East from France almost every kid gets tons of chocolate the 6th from Nicolas.
Ps: i actually do live in Alsace but the tradition died since a while here, now everyone assimilates Santa to xmas and gets their gifts from him. The rest is lost kinda.
Well +Noze P. , you are actually correct. I did not think that in 2014, in Western Europe, a difference still existed between St Nicholas, Père Noël, the giving of presents day (6th), and the un-boxing of the presents (Boxing Day) on the 26th December.
I grew up in hungary +Russell Davison, when i was a kid i got tons of sweets the 6th from Nicholas, i never however get a gift at xmas from him, for us it was the baby jesus who bring them. I guess this has to do some with the de-religionism. Still under communism even it was same order for us as kiddos. Traditions are dying slowly, people here pull xmas tree up at november already. Id like my kid to know about st.Nicholas and co. Tho, i think its a great tradition.
all these bullshit arguments give me headaches. I have a feeling this discussion is going nowhere. Its about getting your way and ignoring the other side. both sides are guilty of this.
why cant we all have a talk about racism isntead of a harmless childrens party. maybe we can get somewere when we actually discuss the problem here. there is a lot of racism in the netherlands and we should talk about that. I am white dutch person living in Rotterdam. Rotterdam has alot of people from different cultures all over the world and I must say that I really like that. I would hate it if everyone was the same and do the same things. sadly not everyone thinks that way. you cant convince these people by calling them racist if they dont agree with you so you have to bring your message in an other way so they'll understand.
I worked in Moscow for a couple of years +Noze P. and, in the spirit of this thread of +Max Huijgen 's post, you'll be more concerned to know the real truth about Xmas, the tree and the date:
(1) The Son of God was actually born on 29 September. This date was changed in 70 AD by the Romans to enable the harmonization of pagan worship of the Sun God on the shortest day of the year to mark the birth of longer days on 25 December.
(2) The bringing into the warm home of a tree is a pagan Celtic tradition to honour Pan and Herne, Lord of the Trees. This pagan tradition was, too, amalgamated with the christian Xmas festival. Some UK churches still refuse to allow Xmas trees into the premises for this reason. However, most UK churches are built upon previous pagan temples, with the altar still in the same position. All UK churches face east-west.
http://www.cinecrowd.nl/zwartgemaakt
I know +Russell Davison 🙂 almost all christian celebration is a pagan spinoff :p
For the dutchies: Gerda Havertong zegt al in 1987 dat het geen leuk feestje is voor zwarte mensen. Zie hier waar je ook in het Nederlands kan discussieren https://plus.google.com/u/2/112352920206354603958/posts/UZfy7qddaVb
If people want something to be racist, people will do anything, find any kind of research that 'confirms' their 'facts'. If anyone wants to, one can paint christianity as a religion that has been mass murdering and conquering throughout the ages, and should therefore in modern day also be painted as such. Makes a lot of sense right? I mean, let's condemn an entire entity solely for a small portion of its past. Hurray!
I am Dutch, I am 'dark skinned' and I enjoy the Sinterklaas tradition for its oldest of origins; Wodan, Huginn en Muninn. If people are judging Sinterklaas for its origins, make sure you atleast learn about all of them.
The children in the Netherlands enjoy the tradition, Belgium enjoys the tradition. Heck even on Aruba and Curacao the dark skinned people enjoy Sinterklaas.
"Looking through 'truly foreign eyes' can be helpful to understand them as well." People should stop wasting time by deliberately painting something racist and focus on real world issues.
Nobody does +Dennis Feenstra _I mean, let's condemn an entire entity solely for a small portion of its past. Hurray!_
We propose change. The Sinterklaas festivtiy is in continuous change.
200 years ago nobody in the Netherlands even knew about Zwarte Piet as he wasn't invented yet. We didn't have more than one Zwarte Piet until about 50 years ago.
+Max Huijgen "Nobody does." More assumptions, please?
Scroll up and point out who is doing it.
+epic mc Videos your comment has just been restored. One of the many comments which got caught in G+'s spam filters.
any suggestions on how to actually change it?
+Dennis Feenstra You are whats called a modern house negro! I am also dutch with a black father (from the collonial state of Curaçao) , a white mother and find this whole thing very offensive. How can we dutch people and especially the dark skinned dutch guys like yourself not see the relations between the rich white man with a golden staff full of expensive jewelery being "sinterklaas" and al his black servents he brought here with a slaveship kneeling for him and doing everything he says and ignore the slavery that has been going on for 400 years. You are a shame for al the dark skinned people in the world for making this look like something innocent and not seeing the history behind it.
I do respect the reactions of all the people in this film for seeing this for what it is. Also lots of respect for Russel Brand for his "collonial hangover" commend" and his Zeitgeist support!
+Gerben van Erkelens There is no solution in between. Racism you have to stop it cold turkey. Why would you permit people to go one with a racist fest and gradually phase it out.
If it were a question of anti-Semitism towards the Jews no one in his or her right mind would say something to search for a solution in between and to gradually phase anti-Semitism out.
This blackface started during the colonial slavery days. Schenkman introduced the black slave in 1850 in his book. The Dutch abolished slavery in 1873. Remember that 1863 was only the proclamation but the "freed" had to work for 10 more years to pay for their freedom in order to indemnify the plantation owners.
This means that Schenkman nourished directly from slavery. What many Dutch people don't know, lack of education, bad Dutch History education, or total historical cover-up, is that there were many black slaves in the Netherlands which were used as domestic slaves.
To avoid that the ignorant among us start to shout that it is not true that there were black slaves in the Netherlands please read the following: https://bukubooks.wordpress.com/swart/ Swart in Nederland
and also http://www.refdag.nl/achtergrond/geschiedenis-cultuur/op_joodse_begraafplaats_ligt_zwarte_slaaf_elieser_naast_slavenhandelaar_1_656045 Op Joodse begraafplaats ligt zwarte slaaf Elieser naast slavenhandelaar
So the only real solution is a Piet makeover, remove all the stereotypes depicting a black man. There is no need to party with blackface. There is absolutely no need to party with racism.
+Bally Sabroso so how would you change it then?
+Dogla88
jahoor omdat iemand het niet met jou eens is gelijk uitmaken voor huisneger. jij bent zelf nu juist beledigend bezig. op deze manier maak je jouw standpunt onder nederlandsers (waar hun dan roets ook mogen liggen) niet populair.
+Victorious I Victorious 1 as I mentioned in my last lines, a Piet makeover, see on this page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pietmakeover/1485255905084399
you still dont answer the question. how do YOU envision the new piet? what can stay and what needs to change? because even from that facebookpage it is still not clear on how it should change.
+Victorious I I have mentioned before that the transformation from scary Piet to friendly Piet has been made in about five years thanks to the Sinterklaasjournaal.
The children had no problem at all with it while it was the most radical change in the history of Piet.
We already have very distinct outfits which define the role of Sint and Piet. Changing the skin color of Piet wouldn't disturb the children. Most wouldn't even notice.
Use the color of his costume in creative ways for her make-up as well. Get rid of the huge red lips. Have a variety of hair styles.
In five years time we could even have a non-white Sinterklaas for a change. On the total outfit that small piece of skin color won't have any effect on the children's experience. Maybe Humberto Tan wants to do it for one year ";)
+Max Huijgen
that is cool. I have no problem with a solution like this.
Or a Turk (bisshop of Myra 😉
+NoMoreBrotherWars Exactly. It's the God DAMNED Jews, doing everything possible to destroy White Nations.
+Max Huijgen Fuck off to Liberia and get Ebola, you nigger loving fag.
+Bally Sabroso you're forgetting the origin of what became ZP before 1850…like the original story goes. That could be the in between as long as we don't forget the part where it was misused.
And with antisemitism you're right, people would say it's either left or right although the whole antisemitism is misjudged these days. For example, I say something not that positive about Israel and I instantly become one which is pretty strange because I also judged the palestines actions (even more).
It's 95% and the majority of the Dutch people are fed up with adjusting to small minorities. From "negerzoenen" ("negro kisses"/chocolate-coated marshmallow treats) to blasphemy. On top of that, freedom of speech should be unlimited. There is nothing wrong with being offended. If you are offended: be offended! And suck it up!
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1311191/704ed283/steve_hughes_offended.html
Yes, this is a perfectly cool holiday, people should shut the fuck up and divert their attention to more pressing concerns.
This is nice though (Dutch): https://decorrespondent.nl/2045/15-dingen-om-te-onthouden-in-het-Zwarte-Pietendebat/155751510860-7cbe4090
+Gerben van Erkelens not nice at all, it`s manipulating. written by someone who`s ready to give in to the demands to change based on criticism without relative comments.
Okay that is also an alternative but then the Child Protection Services will protest as the scary Krampus alike beating up children could cause traumas. Children starting to wet their beds again.
You do know that Sinterklaas was also beating bad children himself in the old days, and that was also changed, as society started to protest.
Furthermore it is such a tiny change to remove all the racist stereotypes of this festivity and make it an all inclusive fest.
I just heard they're added white petes to. If that's correct…problem solved, carry on.
Nope, it got worse as now some white Dutch are sending dead threats to the organizers of the colored Petes. Check this: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1040/Den-Haag/article/detail/3789826/2014/11/14/Organisator-intocht-met-dood-bedreigd-om-kleurenpieten.dhtml
+Gerben van Erkelens if you think that solves the problem, you are very naive. First of all, there was no problem in the first place, only a couple of crybabies with long toes that made problems that weren't. Second of all, that small minority of annoyingly disrespectful crybabies doesn't understand that they are sowing hate and racism. Be offended and suck it up:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1311191/704ed283/steve_hughes_offended.html
For the people who understand Dutch, here you can see a great example of minority hypocrisy that sows hate:
Het Kwaku-festival is traditie!
Eighty percent of the Dutch population fails to understand that people are hurt by this stereotype. A vocal minority defend it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…
It's actually the other way around and don't try to deny that.
What is 80% nowadays concerned about the stereotype? Does the majority want to get rid of Black pete? +Barry Batsbak
+Max Huijgen The majority wants to get rid of YOU.
Let me reprhase that.
"80% of the world fail to understand that up until now, nobody gave a shit about Zwarte Piet, and that they should stay the fuck away from our traditions."
Yeah but didn't you want democracy? What happened to the ''majority is always right'' bullshit? Now it suddenly doesn't matter anymore? I think that's hypocritical.
Damnit, black people always complain about everything. Everyone makes jokes about Asians, white people, black people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Americans etc but in the end only the black people and the muslims are the ones complaining, they see racism in everything..
Democracy != tyranny of the majority.Alexis de Tocqueville 1835 +Ruttie2
+Max Huijgen Oh yeah? Tell that to the European Union and the United States. I'm against democracy meself.
+Max Huijgen Democracy doesn't work because most people are dumb cunts.
+DutchFootball14​, Gruber is that you?
People are for democracy when they're in the majority and against it when they're in the minority.
+Akaija Lavendula You mention the lies that all adults are supposed to support that come with it. How are these lies different from the Santa Claus/Christmas story. Santa Claus has slaves which he calls elfes.. Oh wait these aren't slaves right! These slaves ehhh.. elfes have to work year round to pack all the presents and under pressure (similar to slavery) of a time schedule. How can this be a good example for small children?! And flying reindeer with a red nose(?!), this is definitely a big lie. I'm not pro ZP or against ZP, but if you want, one can find harm in everything.
+stefan kroesbergen Exactly, you could also ban that because it offends midgets. You could ban everything that way.
+stefan kroesbergen If black Dutch people celebrate sinterklaas and black kids love ZP, shouldn't that tell us enough?
+DutchFootball14 Agree
+DutchFootball14 Don't lie and kids aren't that smart jet to understand it. They don't know the history of al the slavery that existed in the world. Start learning the kids in school about the history of the Dutch slavery trade.
+Kiki Monkou Right, they have to be trained to become racists first.
+Kiki Monkou Or maybe we shouldn't because they are kids you goddamn moron. You are not supposed to show kids how terrible this world is when they are so young. What a stupid fucking idea that is. The only thing we should teach children is how to have fun and how to respect others, the rest comes later.
When kids reach a certain age over here, between 10/13 they start learning about slavery, the holocaust etc and not when they are too young to even realize that their parents buy their presents and not Sinterklaas..
+DutchFootball14 Not to mention the fact that Sinterklaas was designed specifically for children. Not adults.
+Ruttie2 Exactly, there is no point creating such a big problem over a holiday for children. It's just pathetic.
+DutchFootball14 The POINT is the destruction of White societies.
+Denise Celt I don't give a shit what color someone is or what religion he or she has, they can all live here as long as they respect out rules. Don't like it then leave.
+DutchFootball14 They won't though. The aliens will come to your country, and, when they have sufficient numbers – DEMAND that you change to serve them.
+Max Huijgen Nice De Tocqueville quote. So how would you think De Tocqueville or any free society would forbid expressing yourself a certain way?
They would not +JD feel free to have any color you want at your private children party.
However government sponsored organizations and events invading on the rights of minority groups would and should be forbidden.
Mind you: I'm not in favor of a court order but I do believe the Dutch constitution and the EHCR would support action against the current black pete stereotype.
+Max Huijgen You claim it's the pro-ZP people who are issuing death threats, while it's actually the antiZP'ers. These people know their arguments are invalid and are thereby forced to use violence. And most of the anti-ZP'ers, just like that 'vocal minority' of pro-ZP'ers are racist as hell.
Show me +Barry Batsbak
The first move has been made by the Dutch court http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/3926244/raad-van-state-vernietigt-uitspraak-rechtbank-zwarte-piet.html
+Max Huijgen ANTI ZWARTE PIET BETOGERS AANGEHOUDEN IN AMSTERDAM
Our Colonial Hangover
How so, "race neutral"? The origin of the festivity comes from a story about a bishop named Sinterklaas, who freed the slaves. The people he freed, in turn offered to help him spread gifts and joy to children. Why is that such an offensive message to others? People who argue against Sinterklaas in the way shown in this video are taken this tradition completely and horribly out of context. You don't even have to explain it away with "he's black from going down the chimney", because the message in itself is not offensive.
Furthermore, as others have pointed out: I don't see why Dutch people should care about what foreigners think of the local traditions. There are so many horrible things going on in the world today, and THIS is the issue we stumble over? A children's festivity that depicts a black person because he happens to be black? Give me a break, and grow some balls.
PS: I have spoken to a couple of black people here in the Netherlands, and when asked NONE said they were offended by zwarte piet.
+Morkulv Athferion Not to mention the fact that Zwarte Piet wears the clothes of a nobleman. Not really a slave in my book.
Excellent research +Morkulv Athferion Impressive!
The history of a tradition (and there are many different stories) is not very relevant for this discussion. It won't change the hurt feelings, nor the message we sent out as a nation.
14 year old child:
I went to Six Flags [amusement park] about 3 weeks ago and in the line, when I turned around to make sure my sister was behind me, a young white Dutch man with his friends shouted out "Look it’s a Zwarte Piet!"
Now this hasn’t been the first time, during last Christmas I went shopping and 3 children – around 4-6 – pointed at me and asked their mother if they could go talk to the Zwarte Piet.
Out of bad luck it just so happens that my birthday is December 5th and in my school I was told by a few other students that I should help the teachers with the
Zwarte Piets for Sinterklaas because I wouldn’t even need to be painted.
+Max Huijgen​​ Wow. This is what people actually think: That the history of a tradition isnt relevant because my personal subjective feelings trump facts.
I have to consistently remind myself we're on Google+ and not Tumblr.
+Max Huijgen Isn't that just because of the fact that people brought it up now?
wtf stereotype? Since when do black people climb houses, walk on the roof, climb the chimney, put gifts in your shoes, etc. I've never seen a black man do that or even heard of a black man doing that.
+Vierkant That's because he works for Saint Nicholas (A.K.A Sinterklaas) who has to bring presents to all children as fast as he can. That's his fucking job. He's a nobleman, like highly trained?
We actually pay money for it you dumbass, they give you candy, not money.
+Vierkant It's not a real occupation you idiot. It's for children you imbecile, not adults.
+Ruttie2 When have I said it´s for adults?
+Vierkant You act like it's an actual occupation. It's not based on logic, it's for children.
Zwarte Piet Is a islamic person (a Moor) not a nigro or slave
You could had known that if you did any investigation on the matter but copy past fill in the blanks pays better i guess
+Ruttie2 the quote from that child is from September 2004. Even before the rainbow Petes, so not influenced by the current debate.
+gixxerharry Peter is an Islamic person, so that's why he always has a beard, right? Every moor in history has a beard. Never seen Zwarte Piet with one.
Try again.
You have it your way
You seam to know it all
I am not going to play your game ms Huijgen
+Darren Gourley Parliament in Surinam banned Zwarte Piet because of discrimination. Do your homework.
Like i sad before Max
I dont play your game
Sure +gixxerharry It's a habit of mine to first inform myself ánd only then participate in a debate.
Sorry about that..
I also kind of know where i am writing about
I did a studie long before there was a internet but thats biside the point
There was a much better way for you to handle this
You could helped whit uniting the islamic children whit the christian children but your choise is dividing and i am kinda for the uniting children thing
And banning a black male from a childrens party isnt that clear for children
Maybe your solution isnt that good
Just a thought
+Simon Woolcot
"Oh my God the old "some of my best friends are black" line to pretend that you're not racist. Has it ever occurred to you that your imaginary 'black friends' might just be humoring you? I live in the Netherlands, and every Dutch person of color that I know is offended by the appearance of Zwarte Piet."
Oh my God the old "some of my best friends are black and submit to my idea of identity politics" story. Simon does love to control his niggers. What a racist asswipe…
+Janfrans Zuidema Not true at all! I am colored, and look around on Youtube and on television. I see and know lots of coloured and black people who love Black Peter. You're misinformed, or deaf to us.
Is het niet ernstig,dat volwassen mensen aanstoot nemen aan een sprookje,waarbij een Sinterklaas met een schimmel over de daken rijdt en een Piet door de schoorsteen moet?In het verleden was de hofnar toch ook blank.De geschiedenis wemelt ook van de blanke slaven,alleen dat wordt weer bewust verzwegen,gelijk ook de holocaust onder de Joodse bevolkingsgroep keer op keer gemonopoliseerd en uitgebuit wordt,niet bij diegenen,die Hitler financieerden,maar bij volkeren,die zelf zwaar onder de bezetting hebben geleden en dat terwijl de geschiedenis bol staat van de holocausten onder verschillende etnische groeperingen.
Waarom gaat Sunny Bergman niet in NZ kamppak de Rothschilds lastig vallen?Mij dunkt dat meer op haar pad te liggen!
Het begint er alle schijn van te krijgen,dat middels een salamitactiek steeds meer van een cultuur vernietigd gaat worden.Nog even en dan gaan gelijk in Nazi Duitsland destijds met de boekenverbranding,hier ook de werken van William Shakespeare en Charles Dickens op de verboden lijst,met daarbij een totaal verbod op negerzoenen en Jodenkoeken.
+riccardobruero You may be completely misinfomed. And that surprises me, because it is all over the news and social media here in the Netherlands for a couple of years now. The majority of the black and coloured people really don't like Black Pete at all. In fact, they have demonstrations, together with a lot of white people, against this racial stereotype character called Black Pete.
+Deeday Sprengers I surely am not. But anti-Peters may be blind to the large number of colored people who defend and love Black Peter. Did you miss all of us on TV and on Youtube? We're here, dammit.
It's a matter of censorship, and we refute the so-called racism as an argument to force a nation to practice this kind of censorship. We're not against differently colored Peters, next to Black Peter.
Ah SJW"s,news and social media so it must be the truth then (no need for further investigation)
Banning a black person from a children party just for being black might not give the children the impulse you want to give the kids
As you might know Sint Nicolaas lived for real in spain and the black people were not the kind you think
Black Peter was a Moor (islamic) and so not a slave but a equal (look it up… alhambra )
Maybe you could turn this into a good thing and combine the islamic and christian children over this
Or do you and all your black friend want to divide the children even more?
Just a thought
+Max Huijgen do not waste your energy…. A large percentage of Dutch people unlike yourself are not very educated in the history of Black face, Slavery, etc. Kids love the holiday! They get candy and presents and the most (black/non black) children do not care about the color of Zwarte piet. They have either never been called Zwarte piet throughout the year, like myself, even as a grown woman, werd ik aap en zwarte piet genoemd. And all children understandably have no knowledge about racism. Whether or not Piet is black won't matter to them. So the biggest percent of the population in Holland is going to use children, holiday, "history" (in their favor ofcourse) and tradition to keep good old black piet. It is a lost battle. The idea that they would have to succumb to the minorities, change a little (shocker) is in their mind ludicrous. That is scary for them. Het zijn autochtonen. Puur hollandse bloed. De echt inwoners van Holland. De rest van de mensen zijn gasten die nu allemaal moeten oprotten naar hun eigen land. It's really funny not living in Holland anymore but the "Zwarte Piet" discussion never gets old. I will say it again. They will not, ever change themselves for people who they consider underneath them. Sad, but in my opinion the truth. You seem honorable and intelligent so I wish you the best of luck!
+riccardobruero No need to curse. Black Pete is a racial stereotype. And the history of this country with slavery is not helping him as well. I am glad to here that you don't mind to see a different colour, because that is what is going to happen. Black Pete in his current state is changing. Like every tradition. And you black guys who love Black Pete are not being censored. You are being ridiculed. The white media are using you as an excuse. Every chance they get. "Look, we found some "negroes" who love Black Pete. So you see, Black Pete is not wrong!" Accept the change and just enjoy your memories. Nobody can take that away from you.
lol
+Deeday Sprengers Lol! I agree that different colors are going to happen. Well, as long as to hunt for Black Peter doesn't kill him off. He's my black hero. And he will stay. 🙂
You're wrong about the censorship, though. because that's what trying to erase the color black in this case is, no less.
+Ami Walen You are right,our Dutch history never spokes about the slavery business done by Jewish and Arab business men,who bought the losers of the wars between the tribes on the African slave market.
+Karel de Kale What they don't talk about is the 300.000 white Irish slaves who were sold by the English and the 100.000 Irish children sold by the English. Irish slaves costed only 5 sterling instead of 50 sterling. Blacks were 50 sterling on average.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076
Ah yeah, I forgot slavery isn't a form of discrimination… Wait a minute 😉
I think today we'll see a more positive approach to the festivities. Hopefully everyone decides it's a good start for evolution of the tradition. The official sinterklaas journaal has made a start by showing white petes too. Hopefully the extremists within both sides will see this today… Although the real extremists will never feel comfortable with any of the changes.
Hopefully we can conquer cognitive dissonance (the http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance) for all involved.
So far those white petes dont change a thing towards my kids feeling about the fest. Theyre starting their chimney training 😉
All people are equal but some of them are more equal (i think hair color and hipster glasses makes you more equal,learn to live whit it,thanx to the modern SJW's you are going to see a lot more of this kind of madness )
+Max Huijgen As always, the libertarian solution is the only fair one: "Remove state funding of the Black Pete ritual, don’t force anyone to pay for speech they oppose."
http://georgeoughttohelp.tumblr.com/post/36152121827/solving-the-black-pete-problem
But that does not take away the fact that I am sick an tired of (hypocritical, immigrated) crybabies complaining about an old native children's party tradition. People like yourself should grow longer toes if they want to live in a society with a kind of freedom of speech:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1311191/704ed283/steve_hughes_offended.html
And in my humble opinion, De Tocqueville would never forbid an old native children's party tradition.
+Simon Woolcot
Wrong, it has been a point of discussion, but left it at that because RELIGION same with circumsition, religious things no matter how cruel do not get prohibitted
+Toudiyama However, it personally sickens me that it is forbidden to cut the tail of a dog, but it is allowed to cut a piece of a child's dick against his will 😉 Malformation of childeren should be forbidden in my humble opinion.
+John Belarus Don't be an idiot,racism is also between black people.And btw why don't you go to Israel to complain there for the racist situation to the falasha Jews,why is my country and culture always attaqued?
The problem with this debate is that both sides keep repeating the same arguments. "ZP is racist!" "ZP is not racist!". That's basically 90% of the discussion. The fact of the matter is that ZP is not 100% racist and neither is ZP 100% racism-free. ZP most certainly isn't intended to mock black people, that's very true. On the other hand, there is a lot of history and context you simply cannot ignore when talking about ZP and maybe us (the white majority) shouldn't get to decide what's racist and what's not.
What bothers me the most are all the people who're telling the offended people to just suck it up and not be offended. That's incredibly arrogant if you ask me. It's true that being offended is not the same as being right, but at the same time: this is supposed to be a festivity for everyone. If it offends people for reasons I can quite easily empathize with, that means to me it's time to look at what needs to be changed. It's this empathy that's severely lacking from the discussion, unfortunately. People treat this discussion as a tug-of-war: one side wins and one side loses. But it really doesn't need to be like that if everyone is willing to show a little empathy to the other side of the debate.
Tradition can never be a good argument in favor of ZP. Traditions change constantly. The heart of the Sinterklaas celebration is not in the black make-up and anyone who claims otherwise, is just being overly dramatic. Changing ZP will not ruin Sinterklaas forever because in the end it's a social festivity that lives in our hearts. Everything else is just window dressing that can be changed if the times call for it.
+Ruttie2 Yes it's for children, so why do people make such a big deal of it? You're all just ruining the joy of the little children, that's just disgusting.
+Deeday Sprengers The AD newspaper did a survey and more than 80% of black people don't really give a fuck about Black Pete.
Not all slaves were black. Not all slave owners were white. If you think that slaves are black and slave owners are white, you're being really racist, because that's kind of stereotypical.
+Vierkant Because 80% of the people don't know what the fuck they're talking about that's why. Because most people blindly follow the TV which talks pure bullshit all the time.
x
+Vierkant Do you have a source/link to that survey? I think 80% of black people don't find black pete offending at all and that more than 80% of the Dutch don't care that a small minority of crybabies feel offended by an old Dutch children's party tradition.
+JD Well actualy just watch the news and see if they dont find this offending 🙂
+Lastig Ventje Who do you mean with "they"? And when you saw "them" on tv, did you saw "all of them" and/or think "they" represented a majority?
And about "being offended" again:
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1311191/704ed283/steve_hughes_offended.html
+Thomas Rosenstand
No, as long as there is racism, there will be a divide between races. As long as people substitute so called "political correctness" with "totally nasty political wrongness".
This is our traditio please leave it alone , this is tradition is going on for 400 years and know people come to our country to change it please shut up
+JD I gave you a fairly complete answer; if you just ignore it my debate with you ends here.
+Max Huijgen I disagree. And I think you just used a fallacy like you did before.
This 'debate' didn't improve over the days as it moved from G+ to YouTube.
I will no longer participate. Everything placed from now on won't get a reaction, nor am I responsible.
If people want my attention: visit this link https://plus.google.com/u/2/112352920206354603958/posts/LDs4vEAYFze where you can use either English or Dutch.
Interesting +Max Huijgen. Despite the argument, the mechanism of the theater change is emblematic of our times.
+Ruttie2 Dude are you stupid? I think that people who celebrate Sinterklaas definetely know what they're talking about.
+Max Huijgen There shouldn't be a "debate" in the first place. It's a very old children's party tradition. You really have to have long toes, a big ego and a dysfunctional self-image to be offended by Zwarte Piet. And again: there is nothing wrong with being offended! Be offended! It comes with the territory of freedom of speech: http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1311191/704ed283/steve_hughes_offended.html
Just don't expect that everyone always adapts to someone's offended feelings every time someone is offended by this or that or the other, especially not when the offended are a very small and partly imported minority and the "insult" contains a very old native children's party tradition, which never have been an insult before and which 90% of the people like the way it is. Also you could take in consideration that people are fed up with adjusting to small imported minorities. From negerzoenen to jokes about Mohammed, people had enough now. Be offended and just suck it up goddamned! Don't be such a crybaby! Expressions do not harm you physically! One of the reasons I am a libertarian is the non-aggression principle – would work perfectly fine in this case as well.
One thing though, this was also an issue in the 70 ties already. My parents were discussing the same things as we do know (yet again). I think the colorful mix of today should be everyone's perfect in between. The kids i saw today didn't had problems with it and the ones who found it strange created a perfect example: the white ones are the dumbest petes, as they didn't had proper schimney training :-P. Nice to see kids don't see any problems…. We should learn from them.
+Gerben van Erkelens Bull. You turn arguments around: "The kids you saw today didn't had problems" in the first place with strictly black petes to begin with. And in the seventies this wasn't an issue either. Even in Surinam there were black petes and no one had such a poor self-image to identify themselves with these characters. (FYI: my dad was raised in The Netherlands and my mom in Surinam and I am from the seventies. And my latin wife is ashamed and annoyed to be an immigrant when she sees those ridiculous cry-babies.) In Belgian this is not an issue. On Curacao this is not an issue – even yesterday you could see black people putting on black pete cosmetics!? This is MADE an issue by a small group of childish grown-ups, aggressively pushing their agenda at the expense of children!? This is even more hilarious when you see other problems in the world or the corruption and racism in the countries where most parents from the "offended" or the offended themselves are from. Go demonstrate for more respect for gay-people, gay-rights and less corruption on the Antilles or something, I would suggest, before ridiculously complaining that Black Pete equals slavery. You know that there is still slavery today? Guess what? Not so much in "white" countries: http://www.justiceforyouth.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/map.jpg
Further you are ignoring the fact that there is nothing wrong with being offended and that it is completely normal that a majority of natives is getting sick and tired of adapting towards minority's long toes and their distorted offended egos. Enough is enough. You don't have to celebrate it, just please stop crying about our old children's party tradition. Look how hypocrite "these people" can be!? Het Kwaku-festival is traditie! Enough is enough! Fuck off! People are fed up now. Just shut the fuck up and go celebrate Christmas or something and LET IT BE. On top of that, "these people" are failing to see that they are harvesting racism with their ridiculous behavior, getting exactly the opposite of what they say they are trying to accomplish.
In the seventies and eighties it WAS an issue… Fact. Just because it's not full out on the media doesn't mean it wasn't there. It surely was here considering the elderly I know stating for this.
I won't demonstrate for this by the way. And I don't complain, let's get that freaking straight! I like the black pete, but studying our history I can see it's misused by a small minority… And That's a part of history all Dutch people should recognise and understand. That doesn't mean it's still the case right now, on the contrary! But I understand people can be offended about it. And I know there's still slavery today, I'm not a moron you know 😉
And I'm not ignoring the fact there's nothing wrong with being offended. I just want to make a point that people should try to understand what's really hapoening, why they're so offended and why they need to defend it so aggressive. No reason for that, traditions evolve… And so will this one. It's not like we're all in Church at Christmas… That's also changed over the years.
So to get this straight… It's not about pete, the minority or whatever here. It's about not wanting to see and investigate why this is happening at the first place. Unfortunately we'll see this over and over again, just like it's happening in the US about gay marriage right now…
Hopefully I made a bit more clear now what my point is here.
+Marinus Calamari But don't you know. It is different when Brits do it.
+Gerben van Erkelens Thank you for your elaboration. You did clarify what your point is, thank you, but it doesn't debunk any of my points. A lot of people are fed up taking every long toe in consideration and indeed do not want "to see and investigate why this is happening". Not every person has the same intellect and/or empathy as you do, but they were still forced to adapt to their new non-Dutch-speaking neighbors, that negerzoenen were suddenly offending, the gigantic mosque that was built next to their house and that you could joke about Jezus but making jokes about Mohammed could get your killed, for example(!) They were forced to adapt to all those foreign changes, mostly against their will. While taxes kept and keep rising. It is the minority with long toes who is aggressively pushing their long-toe anti-agenda and a native majority who response to that, not the other way around(!?) It's ridiculous to complain about the "aggressive defense" from the Dutch of their tradition, when that defense is solely a RESPONSE to the aggressive demonstrations towards and around good believing children anxiously waiting to see the Saint coming. You turn things around. The (imported) minority should try to understand the old children's party tradition of the native majority and not the other way around. And of course people are allowed to be offended if the are, but if you're going to aggressively and loudly demonstrate towards and around little believing children and DEMAND that the native majority adjust their innocent tradition, don't expect people to understand. That is just offensively and annoyingly ridiculous. All the other points I made further in my previous comment (like current Curacao) were to illustrate why it is so logical why most Dutch do not want "to see and investigate why this is happening" and why it is so understandable for them to refuse to do so. Further I am from the seventies and I assure you this was not an issue in the seventies nor the eighties. That perhaps your parents knew some people who had discussions about it, did not made it "an issue". Stating that it is a fact neither. I reply that it IS not a fact 😉 There were no aggressive demonstrations fucking up the arrival of the Saint in front of the waiting children, nor was it a front-page item in the newspapers either.
because it's not supposed to be a stereotype you dumb uninformed *&^%! it has nothing to do with race!
maybe in the past but in present day ZP is just a hero under childeren! what is so bad stereotype about that?
euh yeah you dumb a-hole, because some people wan to kick the shit out of ZP! YES! SOME THAT OPPOSE OF ZP WANT TO USE VIOLENCE TO GET THEIR POINTS ACROSS!
but ofcourse your not going to say that because that would give this little comment of yours alot less credibility.
For starters, most people who aren't Dutch have no knowledge of the Sinterklaas tradition so I find it rather funny that they pass their judgement on it regardless. Their judgement, which is in fact based on blatant racism. Secondly, Zwarte Piet isn't black because of his skin color, he's black because he goes through chimneys. Is the amount of "black" realistic? No, of course it isn't. But why is Zwarte Piet so black? Because you do not want the kids you dress up for to recognize you!
On top of all that, the Sinterklaas tradition can be led back to several "myths", all of them have one thing in common and that is that the "helper" or in some cases "the devil" were black and they have absolutely nothing to do with the portrayal of a person with a black skin. So no matter how people try to make it seem, Zwarte Piet is not the portrayal of a black skinned person. The people who see it as such, can actually be seen as racist themselves if you feel like nitpicking.
And I ask the people who find Zwarte Piet to be racism this; What do you think of movies like "White Chicks"? A movie in which two African-Americans paint their faces white with the intend to make a fool out of white women. Why is this not seen as racism?
In conclusion; Let's not forget that most slaves were, and still are white.
+Paul Wooding It sure looks like it. It does give a good insight to what lengths the protesting side goes…
+NoMoreBrotherWars They always do that, to people who are foolish enough to permit this.
+Gerben van Erkelens I'm going to play devils advocate here… What would happen if the kids say that the black Zwarte Pieten are the dumb ones?
I don't really care about the changes, it's the reason why they are "needed" that I'm against them. I know full well that there is racism and I truly am saddened by that, and that "we" as white people will never truely understand what it's like. But it's starting to feel like a one-way street. The movie "White Chicks" is an example of that, where something nobody sees as racism is actually racism if you find something like Zwarte Piet to be racism. In America they have the "Black College Football Hall of Fame" which, you guessed it, is for black football players only. I get it, there was a struggle (putting it mildly) and of course that deserves to be recognized. I just don't understand the hypocrisy, one thing is racism and then if you switch the (in this case) word 'black' with "white', it won't go over very well.
Zwarte Piet has absolutely nothing to do with racism, not a single thing. Nobody complained when it was just the wig, earrings and stupid red lips they wanted gone. I actually agree with that since it only adds to the stereotype (if you want to see Zwarte Piet as a black person, which is something I can understand) but come on, the kids love Zwarte Piet more than Sinterklaas! Leave it alone, agree that it's a chimney sweeper and not a single person dresses up as Zwarte Piet to be a racist asshole. Well, until now perhaps…
Sorry for the rant.
Good points +Nightfly​. The kids I've heard said the white petes must be the dumb ones. Since they've not got properly to the chimney :-). Problem solved aye!
No only all adults need to see the same thing as the kids do.
+Gerben van Erkelens Nope, you are failing to see what the actual "problem" is, in my humble opinion.
I disagree (of course) but on the other hand…. After a good night sleep I think it's just always the case with every discussion that there are extreme sides…. Maybe that's the only way to get things in balance. But enough of me for now, I'm going to the local Saint Nick festivities. See you all next year. Curious to see where my opinion is around then and everyone else's.
80 percent of the Dutch population fails to understand it because its been a tradition for so long that we don't know how it'd be without Saint Nicolas' festival. And if you think that we do this in any way out of racism you are wrong, we don't see the difference anymore between black and white, you'd wish you could say that in the USA..
I know. I've had a couple of discussions with opponents and they have very valid points and we do need to change the appearrance of Black Pete [Zwarte Piet]. The red lips and big ear piercings are already long gone, most don't use one particular hairstyle anymore and we can gradually integrate white Pete's alongside Black Pete's. And I say gradually, because you cannot expect us to just change the whole tradition in one night. Our tradition will go with the modern times, but it will remain a tradition for all the Dutch and Belgium kids.
Now, how about Christmas?
+Nightfly "What do you think of movies like "White Chicks"? A movie in which two African-Americans paint their faces white with the intend to make a fool out of white women. Why is this not seen as racism?"
THIS. I would love opponents of zwarte piet to try and debunk this! If you portray anything with the colour black, it is immediately racist. But if a white person is made fun of it is perfectly fine.
Why type down lies, why warp the truth that it was the minority that finds offense in this holiday's hero zwarte piet were the ones calling for violence, voiced death wishes themselves, and even comitted violence toward CHILDREN for godsake.. yelling racist at children, threatening their fathers holding them.. The 80% of "dutch population" includes many many black people that celebrate sinterklaas and zwarte piet themselves. Even on the islands they paint their faces blacker for godsake.
http://i43.tinypic.com/ndlr5.jpg So cease your political agenda against culture, you slithering spindoctor.
Grow some testes, pansy.
+Gerben van Erkelens Lol, seriously… Let me to humor you and help you humor me assume that it's true that black piet has something to do with slavery… that's total bs of course, but for the sake of argument: i'll say that's true for a moment…
So, what you're saying is thaf when the black ones are the slaves and the dumb ones: it's a major problem, super racist and blaaablaaablaa. We must do everything we can to stop that!
Yet… When the white ones are the slaves and dumb ones: it's fantastic and no problem at all! Whites being supressed is awesome and funny, but blacks…? Woo, no we can't have that.
… So if a white person is discriminated, portrayed as a slave and labeled as stupid it would be perfectly fine with you, that's what you're saying. Funny how that works. :/
Keep in mind, I don't believe it is racist, discriminatory, etc. I just wanted to point out how insane your argument really is on that regard. It's textbook racism what you're saying there, against white people.
I have blocked +Denise Celt as his white supremacy / jew hate is beyond my tolerance level.
On a sidenote. I don't think most people would have given a single fuck if black piet was changed to multi-colored Piet's…
… But the problem is the reason being used for it.
Netherlands is an extremely tolerant country and adapts to everyone, always put themselves on the 2nd place. We actually do that far too much.
Now an extremely small group of assh… Err.. people, claim that black piet is racist. That's a blatant lie and highly offensive.
And THAT's why people don't want it to change. Because changing it would mean that you agree it is indeed racist. And as it's not racist at all, people are not giving in a single inch to the anti-piet camp because they'd basically have to say "you're right, we're racists and we'll change the colors of piet". No one is going to do that, why would you say you're racist whilst you're not…?
That's where most opposition comes from. It's not racist, it never has been: and changing it based on the racism card is wrong.
If the people who oppose black piet would have gone about it in another way, say simply stating it like this and then be OPEN to fair debate without the racism card:
"Dear fellow Dutchies, we know black piet is your tradition and you value your traditions dearly. Therefore we know that what we're about to ask will raise some concern and opposition, but we're asking it nonetheles… Here goes:
Even though you're not racist and we know it's not intended as such, black piet reminds us of a slave and that hurts us. The way he is depicted reminds us of a terrible time in human history, and as our community has suffered a lot from it, we don't like being reminded.
For that reason, we implore you to look in to changing the appearance of zwarte piet.
If you do not want to, we'll accept that, but we hope you can find it in your hearts to find a workable solution for everyone.
Thank you."
… You know how many more people would be willing to try and work something out? Because we Dutch folks are open like that and always willing to change for minorities, that's how tolerant and nice we really are.
But no, asshole massive racists like Quinsy Gario had to go on this tour "You dutch clowns are all bloody racists, you're all guilty of slave trade, and I demand that you instantly change black piet, because you racist Dutch white assclowns are all really bad people who should stop exploiting us!! F- all of you whities! Piet is racism, racists!!!"
… Do you see perhaps why Quinsy's approach doesnt work?
If people are being labeled racists whilst they're totally not racist at all: they're really not going to change the tradition, as that would be equal to admitting it is a racist tradition; whilst it's far from that.
Something the anti-piet's should perhaps consider.
Thanks to Quinsy it's too late to go down that road though…
Lol what a strange conclusion, it was some kid that made that up on the spot to find a reason for the colored and white petes, certainly not my words :-P. Maybe it's racism (unintended then), but just wanted to point out that kids will find a reason for change. I do understand what you're guys are trying to explain but still I'm not convinced I've made myself clear enough and think you're misinterpreted the meaning behind my comments.
Anyway, like I said before, I'm celebrating right now… So don't take it personally when I mute this post from now on. Different priorities right now.
+Max Huijgen you forgot something they didn't only burn ''witches'' they also burned gipsy people because in their eyes they where unpure and unrealevent in the community. but quess what if I go to turkey and ask for a church they would laugh right in my face. I'm done that the netherlands always have to change their own traditions because of people who are against it. for that fact its dutch and if they don't like it screw them!
+Gerben van Erkelens wel it was a white woman who was against it because her daughter said that white skin was better than coloured skin. but if I was that mom I would ask why she thinks that and explain to her that being colourd also beautiful is.
+JD it wasn't called '' negerzoen'' it was called ''negenzoen'' because there where nine in a box and you basicly kissed that to eat them. they started to cal it that way because it looked like it and some people thought it was funny. but the fact is stil that is never was named ''negerzoen''
+Max Huijgen
i got flogged by pete as a child once..i put my hand in the bag with candy having recieved nothing but fruit uptill then. He was merciless. Now i hate black people. nah kiddin' He was probably just overparenting my stealing ass back on the straight and narrow. Back then I had no idea they he was a caricature of a slave hinting back to colonial days untill a while back when a guy from Suriname explained this ignorant 'tata' what was going on. Now, I refuse to take offense when he calls me a potato and in a similar way, i called upon him to stop wining about an excuse from me for horrible acts i never committed back in a time he never lived in. That's what you should do if you want to 'maintiendrai' in a multi-cultural society like our own. Seems to me we have better and more urgent matters to attend to then to serve the divide et impera agenda that pops up every year around this time.
+tanja4life13 http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negerzoen
If eighty percent of the dutch love the Black Pete character, did you already consider looking beyond those superficial accusations of racism and see Black Pete through the eyes of the dutch? Or do you also know how to build rockets better than NASA?
Looky here, another idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and assuming that just because black face is meant as an insult in some cultures, it must also be meant as an insult in others. Also, good job painting people with a broad brush. I guess stereotyping blacks is wrong, but stereotyping everyone who enjoys a character is just a-ok.
We're not the backwards ones, as always, the netherlands is ahead of it's time, because while in other countries you still have to treat minorities as if they are made of glass, treating them like they're special, we treat them the same as any other. We enjoy our differences, and we don't treat a white person with black make-up any different than we would a black person with white make up.
THAT is progress, THAT is leaving slavery behind and heading towards a racist free society.
It's people like you that are pulling us back into the old prejudices by making strengthening the lines dividing white and black, and not leaving the past behind you.
And another thing, you were never a slave, you were never a slaver, and by pretending like blacks have some sort of connection with slavery you are judgeing them based on their race. They are no more connected to the slaves than I am, just because of their skin color, slavery is a problem that other humans did to other humans, and I am neither a victim nor a victimizer just because of my race.
Luckily it's not a vocal minority that defends Black Pete in the netherlands, it's over 80%, which brings pride to my heart.
+DutchDread Preach it, brother. I couldn't have said it better myself! Diversity is beauty. A colorful Earth is a planet worth living on. Yet people (unknowingly?) want to erase cultural, racial and sexual variety along with discrimination. Fortunately, I feel like our culture is heading in the right way.
+DutchDread You're such a complete idiot. ''Oh so being racist is not okay, but generalizing people who like the racist stereotype IS okay?? Wow dubbel standards!!''. that's not how it works.
And by comparing black people with white make-up on with Zwarte Piet, you're just patronizing the entire discussion of it all. The point is that this all is RACIST. And that ''reverse racism'' shit you're pulling isn't right. By saying ''oh but i dont treat blacks differently!!!!'' is like, ok, congrats, but that has nothing to do with this discussion. When an oppressed group comes to you, and says ''hey, i don't like this thing that you're doing, since it is racist and is portraying us in a bad setereotype, maybe you could change it'' you SHOULDN'T jump in defense-mode. That's the problem with us in this country.
By disregarding their feelings and saying ''but i dont see race'' or something like that, you're ignoring the history of racism, slavery, and all the other shit that's happened. You're saying ''oh no, I, a white person, do not thing this is offensive even though i couldnt really understand since im not the minority who is still judged by the colour of their skin''. Not to mention racism is still a thing, and always will be a thing. Because some people are just fuck-ups and will hate on people because they can.
What is the fucking problem with changing the colour of a fucking character? Explain to me what that problem is, here and now. With arguments. Tell me why it is impossible to change the colour, or make it less obvious and get rid of the stereotypical things such as the golden earring and big red lips. TELL ME WHY THAT CANT CHANGE. Oh dear, you think the children couldn't handle it if their lovely Piet was purple instead of black? Do you actually believe they would give a shit? No, because they care about presents and the Piet & Sinterklaas themselves. I've actually heard someone say ''but then they wont believe in it anymore!!!'' right. Because changing colour is harder to believe than a fucking 400-year-old man with a horse on your roof dropping presents down your chimney (which most of the dutch houses dont even have anymore)
+Ayy Yes, children will believe everything. But for the sake of the character, you can't just change it's race. You've just contradicted yourself: "You're ignoring the history of racism, slavery, and all the other shit that's happened." Having an ethnicity means you have a culture, which defines you fundamentally.
What a lot of people fail to see is that Zwarte Piet is a wonderful character, someone to look up to. If someone feels connected with this character because of his/her skin, I can't imagine that person would feel offended.
Forbidding Zwarte Piet to have black skin, that's actually racist.
+Bart van der Vaart "Fordidding Zwarte Piet to be a black stereotype is actually racist"
Yeah, makes sense.
Why don't you see Zwarte Piet as an individual. He's not a stereotype. We can't have a discussion if you keep claiming the contrary.
I assume you're not dutch, because the Zwarte Piet you're imagining is not the Zwarte Piet I know, and love.
+Bart van der Vaart You obviously did not read my comment, because I said ''us, as a country''. So yea, I am Dutch. And I love Sinterklaas & Zwarte Piet, Sinterklaas is my favorite holiday (funnily enough) and I absolutely love it. But unlike others, I understand that Zwarte Piet is a stereotype and should be changed. It isn't a matter of ''it isn't intended to be racist'' because I fucking know that? It's a matter of ''is that group offended by this and do they have a valid reason to be''. And I have seen that people a legitemately hurt and offended by this stereotype, but then get told to ''leave this country if you dont like it!!!'' even though they have been born and raised in the Netherlands. That's our problem. We'd rather tell Dutch people to go back to ''their own country'' because they have a different colored skin, than to actually think about it and see it from their perspective.
There is actually no valid reason to not change Zwarte Piet and removing the stereotypical things such as big red lips, kroeshaar (dont know the translation in english) and the golden earring, and maybe change color or turn into an actually smudged-from-the-chimney-look over time. We are so butthurted that people think of us as racists, that we don't even want to consider that maybe our Zwarte Piet really is offensive.
+Ayy The appearance of Zwarte Pieten actually HAVE changed, you'll never see a Zwarte Piet with golden earrings, or overdone fat lips (like the cookie in the video). They often HAVE different hairstyles to express different personalities. Again, you're falsely portraying Zwarte Piet as a stereotype.
I don't know anyone irl who would say "Go back to your own country!" to anyone. But racists are notorious for being big-mouthed, this makes them look like they're with more than they actually are. The PVV seems to wear "Go back to your own country!" as a slogan. But (thank God) they didn't make it into the coalition. Which proofs they don't represent the opinion of a large part of our country.
+Bart van der Vaart how different do they look now im asking about face wize is it still black or no
+Kunimitsu877 And what if he is black? Why does that offend people? Should we also change Brock's (from Pokémon) ethnicity, and Nick Fury's (from Marvel)? And while we're at it, let's change Mr. T's, Django's and the whole Cosby family's skin colour too! Because that seems to please victims of discrimination.
I don't understand what causes this phantom offense from Zwarte Piet. But to us, it's just a character. And to the children, they are real people. We love this Zwarte Piet, whether we look back with nostalgia or we look up to the warm smile on his/her face.
+Bart van der Vaart Are you actually this stupid? You're comparing normal people to cartoon-like characters who look like black stereotypes oh my god
But PLEASE TELL ME WHY IT CAN'T BE CHANGED. Because I haven't heard a single argument of why it couldn't be changed.
+Bart van der Vaart They NEVER have different hairstyles and I only see them with red lips. But please, yet again you ignored my question of why it can't be changed, enlighten me. Are you scared the children will be traumatized by a Piet who suddenly has a smudged-by-a-chimney-look instead of completely black
"You are whats called a modern house negro!" Cassius Clay renamed himself after becoming a Muslim. It was to free himself from the slavery of Christianity. His new prophet Muhammad kept a house negro called Bilal. So Cassius went willingly from one form of black slavery to another. That's why Muhammad Ali is the biggest house negro this world has ever known…
Maybe this is a bit off topic, how ever, did you know that there were more white slaves sold to north Africa than there were black slaves sold to America (speaking about the original 13 states).
And that in Saudi Arabia it was legal by law to trade slaves until 1961..!
And based on other facts, it's stupid for black people to take the monopoly on slavery and feel offended by it since they weren't even the majority of the slave trade. Think about the Roman empire that used slaves to work in the copper mines or for entertainment purposes. So if we should feel offended by things that happened in the past, shouldn't we all feel offended and not just the black people among us when we talk about slavery. Everywhere in the world there has been slavery regardless of skin color. So maybe it's time we stop whining about the Dutch culture and festivity that we have been celebrating for many years and just let us have our fun. It's once a year, not all year round and if you don't like it, don't take part it in. I stand by the fact that in the case of black pete, he is black because of the chimney and he is not a slave but he is helping an old man who wants to bring joy (to children in this case). Also, St. Nicolas is from Turkey in case people wonder if the Dutch made him and his "
black pete gang" up.
Holy shit, humanity almost is crying for a nuclear war. So much hate, conspiracy theories all that. Black pete tradition is obviously based on slavery, giving the stereotype black people should serve the old wise rich white man. You can make a fairy tale all you want, smart kids will realize it. I realized it when i was about 12 and learned about slavery. Make the pete another color and be done with it, stop using kids as excuse. They don't fuking care what the pete looks like, they just like presents and candy. I am so sick of humanity, we will destroy ourselves, but i am not giving up on them. I know there are smart good people out there, i love you guys. Stay strong!
"Eighty percent of the Dutch population fails to understand that people are hurt by this stereotype. A vocal minority defend it so aggressively that proponents of a change are bombarded with death wishes…"
I like how you lied and framed it like it's actually a thing. What's of course really the case is that a tiny minority (less than 1%) agressively demands a ban on the cultural practises of the vast majority, without giving any solid reason.
Obviously most people are up in arms about this oppression of their culture that's being imposed.
A much better question is: Should a culture be oppressed just because a tiny number of people demand it, without giving a valid reason?
+extremya wauw.. jij ben zo dom.. je negeerd volledig het punt van dit filmpje, het is misschien dat je het wilt negeren, or you are just so stupid that you can't underatand a word of englisch.
Moet je de reacties zien van de mensen die de black faced people (zwarte pieten) zien, hoe kun jij nu nogsteeds niet begrijpen dat dat een slecht beeld is, jij probeerd het maar een beetje te argumenteren door je traditie te prijzen, maar je laat de feiten gewoon vallen. Het maakt niet uit of jij denkt dat het om de slavernij gaat, het is om het beeld dat het het geeft aan mensen, zoals in het filmpje, puur dat het onderdanen zijn van een zwarte man, als je goed naar het filmpje had GEKEKEN, want hier hoefde jij geen engenls voor te kunnen wat je blijkbaar niet kan, was het wel duidelijk geweest dat het een erg slect beeld is, kijk maar naar dat boek met al die plaatjes, dat is toch niet normaal meer.
+Joël Nosaehi Gast, dat je in discussie wilt gaan met iemand, helemaal top! Maar hoe de fuck kan jij iemand dom noemen, als jouw Nederlands zoveel te wensen over laat. Ik hoop dan ook dat je gigantisch loopt te trollen hier. Want werkelijk… dit is te hilarisch!
+Joël Nosaehi
Aangezien het filmpje in scene is gezet, en gebruik maakt van van tevoren ingeseinde mensen of betaalde acteurs, mag het geen wonder heten dat mensen er geen punt in zien.
Behalve dan natuurlijk dat de ophef over Zwarte Piet een non-issue is: Een paar (racistische) mafkezen die tegen zijn, versus de hele Nederlandse bevolking, en alle mensen in het buitenland die wel normaal zijn.
Want als Russel Brand gilt dat mijn cultuur maar onderdrukt moet worden omdat een paar extreem-linkse mensen en verbitterde racisten dat vinden, dan zit de man domweg fout. Dat is alsof ik Guy Fawkes wil verbieden omdat het aanstootgevend is voor katholieken.
+Mr Xereoth You're such a bloody idiot. You know why there were white slaves? Because black people admired their skin and thought that was beautiful. That's why they wanted to have them. You know why there were black slaves? Because black people were considered ugly and worthless.
You know why your argument is just plain stupid? BECAUSE WHITE SLAVERY HASN'T HAD AN IMPACT ON TODAY'S SOCIETY, AND BLACK SLAVERY HAS. Because racism is still around and you're too stupid to understand that.
+Mr Xereoth Zegt degene die het woord ''jouw'' niet eens kan spellen.
+Ayy Wow, I've never seen such a pathetic attempt to justify slavery in my entire life.
Also, slavery wasn't just an issue 200 years ago you dense motherfucker, it has been a constant throughout human history. From the vikings to Rome, and from Egypt to Japan.
There is NOTHING special about blacks when it comes to slavery. Oh and btw, there were white irish slaves sold to america as well you uninformed piece of malinformation.
+Blah b HAHAHA JOUW CULTUUR ONDERDRUKT WORDEN. SURE
Nederlandse cultuur bestaat uit meer dan een racistisch stereotype dat pepernoten strooit. Onze cultuur wordt niet ''''onderdrukt''''' omdat mensen terecht aangeven dat ze zich gekwetst voelen door een stereotype dat we hebben geïntroduceerd in de tijd dat racisme normaal was. We zouden hooguit onderdrukt worden als we Sinterklaas af zouden moeten schaffen, maar dat is niet het punt hier. Het is gewoon het aanpassen van een al bestaand karakter.
Het feit dat iedereen zich zo butthurt voelt omdat mensen denken dat we racistisch zijn en daarom meteen in defense mode springt, is belachelijk. Wij zijn niet racistisch (uitzonderingen zijn er genoeg helaas) en de traditie is niet racistiscg bedoeld, maar dat is niet het punt hier? Het is niet de vraag of iets als kwetsend is bedoeld, het is of iets als kwetsend door die groep word ervaren. Als het antwoord veelal ''ja'' klinkt, dan doe je als land iets fout.
Want, vertel mij, wat is het probleem met het veranderen van Zwarte Piet? Het missen van de gouden oorring, rode lippen en het kroeshaard, de huid écht laten lijken alsof het vegen zijn van de schoorsteen (die niemand heeft anno 2014 maar ok).
De ''traditie'' is kapot? Nee, Sinterklaas en Piet (en de liefde voor hun) bestaat nog steeds.
Ben je bang dat de kinderen trauma's krijgen en de stoomboot opblazen of zo? Het maakt kinderen echt geen ene fuck uit hoe Piet er uit ziet, zolang hij maar zijn leuke pakje heeft, en dolle leuke knecht uithangt, en snoep en cadeautjes geeft.
+DutchDread I never justified anything? What the fuck, did you even read my comment or just kinda skipped over it and thought ''WELL IM JUST GONNA SAY SHIT TO THAT PERSON''
Like I said, WHITE SLAVERY HASN'T HAD AN IMPACT ON TODAY'S SOCIETY IN THE WESTERN WORLD.
White people in America still have more money, work, income etc. because of slavery. Black people get killed and judged for their skin and racism is still here. And you know why racism is here? Because of slavery and the hate that lies in the past, and still isn't dead yet.
+Ayy "Nederlandse cultuur bestaat uit meer dan een racistisch stereotype dat pepernoten strooit. Onze cultuur wordt niet ''''onderdrukt''''' omdat mensen terecht aangeven dat ze zich gekwetst voelen door een stereotype dat we hebben geïntroduceerd in de tijd dat racisme normaal was. We zouden hooguit onderdrukt worden als we Sinterklaas af zouden moeten schaffen, "
Een hele cultuur hoeft niet te worden afgeschaft voordat hij wordt onderdrukt, dus dat argument is zinloos.
Mensen voelen zich ook gekwetst door het homo huwelijk en door vrouwen die de Boerka dragen, maar wanneer we zeggen dat ze dat niet kunnen doen voelen ze zich begrijpbaar onderdrukt.
De person die zwarte piet als moor introduceerde was lid van een humanitaire groep en waarschijnlijk geïnspireerd door een ouder kinder verhaal waar de sint een stel kinderen straft omdat ze racistisch zijn tegenover een Moor. Wat sommige mensen hebben gedaan met dat beeld is niet mijn probleem, het was toen niet racistisch, en het is nu niet racistisch.
En zonder zwarte piet is sinterklaas afgeschaft want zwarte piet is even essentieel voor sinterklaas als sinterklaas zelf. Als we sinterklaas plotseling zouden moeten veranderen in de kerstman dan zou het geen sinterklaas meer zijn maar kerstmis, en hetzelfde geld voor zwarte piet.
Zonder zwarte piet is het een of ander ander feest, maar geen sinterklaas.
"maar dat is niet het punt hier"
Jawel
"Het is gewoon het aanpassen van een al bestaand karakter."
Onder druk, en tegen onze wil in. Net zoals dat southpark uit puur principe niet zou moeten luisteren naar de Moslims die boos worden dat ze Mohammed showen, zo moeten wij puur uit principe niet luisteren naar dit gezwam over zwarte piet. Wij luisteren niet naar terroristen, klaar.
"Het feit dat iedereen zich zo butthurt voelt omdat mensen denken dat we racistisch zijn en daarom meteen in defense mode springt, is belachelijk. Wij zijn niet racistisch "
En dat zou het einde van de discussie moeten zijn "wij vinden wat jullie doen racisisch", "wij zijn niet racistisch", "dan is het goed".
"Het is niet de vraag of iets als kwetsend is bedoeld, het is of iets als kwetsend door die groep word ervaren"
Nee, het punt is absoluut of het kwetsend bedoeld is. In de woorden van Stephen Fry:
“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more… than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."
Alles kan worden gezien als kwetsend, en die uitspraak niet ik niet serieus, als ik iets doe zonder kwade bedoelingen, en jij neemt daar aanstoot aan, dan is dat jouw probleem, niet het mijne, KLAAR!
"Want, vertel mij, wat is het probleem met het veranderen van Zwarte Piet? Het missen van de gouden oorring, rode lippen en het kroeshaard, de huid écht laten lijken alsof het vegen zijn van de schoorsteen (die niemand heeft anno 2014 maar ok). "
Totaal irrelevant. Als ik het niet wil veranderen heb ik daar geen reden voor nodig, al heb ik er genoeg.
"De ''traditie'' is kapot? Nee, Sinterklaas en Piet (en de liefde voor hun) bestaat nog steeds.
Ben je bang dat de kinderen trauma's krijgen en de stoomboot opblazen of zo? Het maakt kinderen echt geen ene fuck uit hoe Piet er uit ziet, zolang hij maar zijn leuke pakje heeft, en dolle leuke knecht uithangt, en snoep en cadeautjes geeft. "
Vertel dat maar tegen mijn neefje dat zat te huilen nadat hij een nep piet zag omdat "Het gewoon een volwassene met schmink is".
Zoals altijd, 0 argumenten, het enige wat jullie zeggen is "waarom niet"? Dat is het meest achterlijke wat ik ooit gehoord heb, "waarom niet?" WAAROM WEL!?
+Ayy Exactly, apologetics, justifying slavery, like I said.
"White people in America still have more money, work, income etc. because of slavery"
So fucking what? The black people in america probably have more money now because of slavery as well. But this is a complete non issue. First of all you are judgeing people based on their skin colour by pretending that I as a white man am somehow connected to slavers, just because of my skin colour, and the same goes for blacks.
Every race had slavers and slaves at one point in history, and none of that applies to me because I WASN'T THERE!
There is no such thing as original sin you know, what other people did to other people is of no concern to me, I can get no rights from it, nor can I be attacked for it.
You are literally saying that I have some sort of responsibility to another person because two other people weren't nice to each other a while back.
Fuck that, that's sick.
+Ayy Also, racism is here because of tribalism and own group preference you uneducated fuckwit. And it's not a white thing, and if you are gonna pretend that it is, then you are being racist.
+Ayy
"Want, vertel mij, wat is het probleem met het veranderen van Zwarte Piet?"
Wat ik al zei: Dat onder dwang opleggen, is het onderdrukken van een cultuur, het is discriminatie en een schending van verschillende grondrechten.
Het is vergelijkbaar met het Kwakoe festival verbieden omdat een tiental mensen een haat tegen Surinamers koestert.
Als dat zo is negeren we die mensen. Op dezelfde manier zouden we de fascisten en racisten die tegen de Sinterklaasviering zijn, moeten negeren.
+Blah b Oh, je karakter dat een stereotype is en daarom kwetsend voor mensen moet afgeschaft worden, dat is discriminatie? Dat zwarte mensen zich gekwetst voelen door zo'n karakter is geen discriminatie? Wat is er mis met jou? Wie is hier nou de racist?
''IK BEN ONDERDRUKT want ik heb een kwetsend en discriminerend stereotype en wil niet dat het veranderd wordt mweeeeh :(''
Je wordt niet onderdrukt omdat je kinderfeest-karakter een ander kleurtje krijgt. Je wordt wél onderdrukt wanneer een kwetsende en stereotyperende karakter van jouw ''soort'' mensen worden gemaakt, en wanneer je er wat van zegt, er niks aan wordt gedaan.
Dat je überhaupt ontkent dat het een stereotype is, is nog wel het ergste. Heb je ooit oude strips gelezen? Kuifje bijvoorbeeld? I did. Zwarte mensen worden afgebeeld met enorme rode lippen, kroeshaar en een gouden oorring. Dat was vroeger, tegenwoordig is het natuurlijk belachelijk om mensen zo af te beelden, toch?
Maar blijkbaar niet als het om Zwarte Piet gaat.
En vertel me, welke grondrechten worden er geschonden, en ik welke mate dat het belangrijker is dan gelijke rechten? Ik studeer namelijk rechten, dus ik ben reuze geïnteresseerd. Want met Zwarte Piet worden de gelijke rechten geschonden, het is discriminerend. Het allereerste artikel van de grondwet, zoek het op.
De rechtbank heeft uitgesproken dat Zwarte Piet discriminerend is, dus HET RECHT staat aan mijn kant. Dus die argumenten kan je weer terug in je zak stoppen en ergens anders uitdelen.
+Ayy Fist of, the fact that you write with the passion of someone who just got fucked in the ass says enough 🙂 Second, what you're saying is complete bullshit. And because black people admired the white skin, it is okay to have white slavery and because the white people thought the black people skin was ulgy it's not okay to have slavery? And white slavery hasn't had such an impact, because the white people don't keep referring to it years and years after it's gone. Black people are holding a grudge on something that happend years ago and that no one can change. And the gladiators that were made to fight each other was also because of their nice skins? You can't only pick a certain thing to believe and fight for and not take in every other fact.. And racism is still around because of people, not because of slavery. And not only against black people but against everything you can be a potential racist against.
+Ayy En het feit dat ik een spelfout maakt, who gives a fuck! Ik noem niemand dom, heb ook nooit beweert dat ik wel goed ben in Nederlands. Ik begrijp dus ook niet wat je bent aan het zeiken, maar volgens mij zeur en zeik je gewoon graag omdat je in real life niet gehoord wordt, en guess what, op internet ook niet want ik geef geen fuck om wat je te vertellen hebt 🙂
+Simon Woolcot Eh dat is wel pittig anekdotisch. Ik ken er ook genoeg die het niks kan schelen.
+DutchDread Ben je homohuwelijken aan het vergelijken met Zwarte Piet? Hoe haal je het in hemelsnaam in je hoofd oh mijn god.
Homohuwelijks zijn RECHTEN VAN MENSEN. Grondrechten, gelijke behandeling. Je haalt letterlijk normale rechten van personen erbij om een stom blackface-karakter te verdedigen. Het heeft helemaal niks met elkaar te maken.
Het homohuwelijk en een boerka dragen is niet discriminerend, het is juist TEGEN DISCRIMINATIE, omdat je onderdrukte mensen de vrijheid geeft om hun basisrechten te beoefenen.
Blackface opdoen en daarbij mensen kwetsen heeft daar geen ene kloot mee te maken, en ik vind het echt compleet belachelijk dat je zulke dingen hierbij haalt. Maar goed, zegt genoeg over jou als persoon.
En nee, Zwarte Piet IS niet Sinterklaas. JE. SCHAFT. NIKS. AF. Sinterklaas blijft Sinterklaas, welke kleur die Pieten ook hebben? Je bent wel heel kleinzielig als je geen Sinterklaas meer gaat vieren omdat de Pieten op je cadeauverpakking paars zijn of zwarte vegen hebben in plaats van zwart zijn. Damn.
"Wij luisteren niet naar terroristen, klaar."
DIT. Dit is het. Dit zegt genoeg over jou en alle voorstanders van Zwarte Piet. Je vergelijkt gekwetste mensen met terroristen? Hoe achterlijk ben je?
I'm done, je achterlijke gezeik heeft niks te maken met het punt van deze discussie. Je vergelijkt mensen die GEKWETST ZIJN DOOR EEN STEREOTYPE met fucking terroristen? Ik snap niet hoe je het in hemelsnaam in je hoofd krijgt om met zulke dingen aan te komen, maar ik ben er klaar mee. Je bent het niet wáárd om verder mee in discussie te gaan, hoe graag ik je bullshit-argumenten ook wil verbeteren.
+Mr Xereoth Hahahaha christ I don't have the power to keep commenting to people like you. You actually believe that racism is still around because black people keep talking about it?
Because that's your whole point, actually.
+Mr Xereoth Ik zei dat omdat je zelf lulde over ''oh je kan wel leuk gaan discussiëren maar je kan geen Nederlands ha!!!'', dus je zeikt iemand af omdat hij geen perfecte spelling kan (wat überhaupt belachelijk is om te doen) en vervolgens kan je het zelf ook niet.
Unlike you, ben ik niet zo zielig om als enige argument te roepen ''maar jij kan niet spellen!!!!!'', dus ik ben klaar met deze zinloze discussie.
Ook wel grappig dat je zegt dat ik aanvallend reageer terwijl je zelf even erg terugreageert. Op en top hypocriet.
+Ayy "Ben je homohuwelijken aan het vergelijken met Zwarte Piet? Hoe haal je het in hemelsnaam in je hoofd oh mijn god."
Luister mongool, het is om een punt te maken, het punt is dat gewoon omdat iemand iets beledigend vind, dat niet betekend dat het fout is, of dat je moet luisteren naar die mensen. Ik neem homohuwelijk als voorbeeld omdat iedereen dat snapt.
Iedereen behalve jij kennelijk want het hele concept gaat helemaal over je hoofd heen.
"omohuwelijks zijn RECHTEN VAN MENSEN. Grondrechten, gelijke behandeling. Je haalt letterlijk normale rechten van personen erbij om een stom blackface-karakter te verdedigen."
Zoals ik zei, je mist het punt omdat je niet rationeel nadenkt en gewoon beledigd wil zijn.
Vrijheid van meningsuiting is ook een recht van de mens trouwens en dat is hier ook in het geding.
"Het heeft helemaal niks met elkaar te maken.
Het homohuwelijk en een boerka dragen is niet discriminerend, het is juist TEGEN DISCRIMINATIE"
GAAT HET NIET OM JIJ KANKER MONGOOL! Het gaat om 1 ding en niet meer, het idee dat dat iets kwetsend is voor mensen geen argument is om het te stoppen. Leer dingen te scheiden.
"omdat je onderdrukte mensen de vrijheid geeft om hun basisrechten te beoefenen. "
Zoals hun cultuur te beoofenen? Oh nee, want rechten zijn alleen voor buitenlanders, ik was het bijna vergeten.
"Blackface opdoen en daarbij mensen kwetsen heeft daar geen ene kloot mee te maken, en ik vind het echt compleet belachelijk dat je zulke dingen hierbij haalt. Maar goed, zegt genoeg over jou als persoon."
Het zegt genoeg over jou dat je niet eens je emoties kan scheiden van argumenten, en het zegt nog meer over je standpunten. Namelijk dat ze emotioneel gedreven zijn en niet rationeel.
"En nee, Zwarte Piet IS niet Sinterklaas. JE. SCHAFT. NIKS. AF. Sinterklaas blijft Sinterklaas, welke kleur die Pieten ook hebben? Je bent wel heel kleinzielig als je geen Sinterklaas meer gaat vieren omdat de Pieten op je cadeauverpakking paars zijn of zwarte vegen hebben in plaats van zwart zijn. Damn."
Nee sinterklaas is geen sinterklaas zonder zwarte piet, net als dat het geen sinterklaas is zonder sinterklaas. En geen kerstmis zonder de kerstman. En geen pasen zonder de paashaas.
"DIT. Dit is het. Dit zegt genoeg over jou en alle voorstanders van Zwarte Piet. Je vergelijkt gekwetste mensen met terroristen? Hoe achterlijk ben je?"
Hoe neem jij mensen die haat gebruiken om je proberen te dwingen te leven volgens hun normen en waarden? Want terrorist vind ik een redelijk tam woord ervoor zelfs.
"I'm done, je achterlijke gezeik heeft niks te maken met het punt van deze discussie. Je vergelijkt mensen die GEKWETST ZIJN DOOR EEN STEREOTYPE met fucking terroristen? Ik snap niet hoe je het in hemelsnaam in je hoofd krijgt om met zulke dingen aan te komen, maar ik ben er klaar mee. Je bent het niet wáárd om verder mee in discussie te gaan, hoe graag ik je bullshit-argumenten ook wil verbeteren."
Ach, het kindje kan niet winnen dus rent weg.
Meneer vind het redelijk om zwarte piet met slavernij te vergelijken alsof dat hetzelfde is, maar wanneer iemand anders een vergelijking gebruikt, NIET OM TE ZEGGEN DAT HET HETZELFDE IS, maar om een concept duidelijk te maken, dan is dat ineens onacceptabel.
Wordt volwassen, leer logica, leer geschiedenis, en hou je bek, want daarna ben je nog steeds te dom om werkelijk iets toe te voegen aan het gesprek.
+Ayy Yeah because that's exactly what I said… and you tell other people they just skim over your comments instead of reading them, maybe you should read before talking also because you sell nothing but bullshit.
+Ayy Ik zeik niemand af op zijn spelling, ik zeik iemand af op het feit dat hij/zij iemand dom noemt en er zelf geen normaal woord uit krijgt. Maar ik reageer niet aangevallen, ik zeg gewoon dat het me niet boeit wat je te vertellen hebt, omdat je alleen maar leest wat je wilt en totaal niet open staat voor andermans mening. Dus zoek het je lekker uit 😉 Het mag duidelijk zijn hoe dik de plank voor je kop is.
Then you fail to see that maybe Indians can be offended with Thanksgiving being reminded that white men took their land and destroyed nature, killed their family and put their ancestors even in camps…. Let's think about that !!!
Loads of people don't know the true story about our Sinterklaas or Saint Nicholas. Read people read and catch up on the History first, before judging!!!! So read what I wrote down in the comments about the true story of our Sinterklaas!!!
+phoebs69 It's called native Amricans, not Indians… And yeah, they do get offended by it, but not as much as they get offended by Columbus day, which is literally celebrating the genocide of the native americans by the guy who couldn't find a different continent.
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
+Ayy Thanksgiving is the celebration of the so called "First Thanksgiving" an insignificant event that was made important because it was used on a national scale to cover up the Native American genocide, and replace it with some feel-good propaganda about an America that never was. You can pretend that it's a fun celebration for the family, but it really is a disgusting American Supremacist monstrosity that needs to die.
+Ayy Yeah, and maybe Columbus day should go as well, just because they dislike Columbus day more doesn't validate thanksgiving you retard.
+Ayy Excuse me, your right they are called native americans.
But I wrote that bit for comparing how stupid people can be about a tradition that's been on for ages.
I think that people just need to get over it and leave the traditions in every country for what it is and accept it.
Because if we don't accept eachother then we aren't any better
I hear dressing up kids as caricatures of "Lil' Injuns" for the occasion is still a thing in the United States of Selective Indignation
http://girltomom.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/preschoolthanksgivingparty-006-1024×766.jpg
+Marinus Calamari That's my point?
The only people who feel butthurt are the ones that feel like to have to feel butthurt.
What I mean to say is, this black image has NEVER EVER been an issue until someone came up with the idea that they are black slaves.
The same with ebola, before it went mainstream people could talk about ebola properly, however the media made it look like it is the worst thing on earth which it became. I'd say we should just end this retarded discussion, because nobody actually fucking cares what colour they are.
You know its a celebration for kids you all take it too seriously you cant just cancel it
Who wants to cancel Sinterklaas? I love Sinterklaas, the poems, the presents, the family, it's a very nice celebration. I and many others would simply like to see the appearance of Zwarte Piet modernised, so he looks as if he's been down a chimney, not a bloody 1940's blackface minstrel
+Simon Woolcot exactly
The fact that I want to change ZP is more despite than because of finger-wagging British hypocrites who boorishly project their own culture onto another, +Simon Woolcot.
+Max Huijgen I suppose your tolerance level(17-11-2014 +Denise Celt) is uprising by the treatment of the falasha Jews in Israel?
+extremya Het grote probleem van Max is,dat de handel in negerslaven ontstond door stammenoorlogen,waarbij de overwonnen negerstam als krijgsbuit (gebruikelijk in de geschiedenis der mensheid)werd beschouwd en de (Afrikaanse)handel daarin werd bedreven door Joodse en Arabische slavenhandelaren.Verder heeft de gouden bocht in Amsterdam er flink aan verdiend, evenals de plantages in Suriname.Lees het boek de eeuw van Ferrier-de Joodse kolonisatie van Suriname.
Google tevens op de handel in slaven vanuit Ierland,er werden de gehele geschiedenis ook blanke slaven gehouden,maar dat wordt uiteraard weer niet genoemd in het verdere spel van de ontworteling van de autochtone Nederlander op ieder gebied.
+Ayy Ach jij studeert rechten,hoe zit dat nu met de veel belangrijker vraag:het zelfbeschikkingsrecht van de Nederlandse bevolking inzake de EU en de ambtseed van de niet democratisch gekozen Willem Alexander?Ik dacht dat dat veel belangrijker is,dan die eeuwige salami tactiek om steeds wat van onze cultuur en identiteit te verwoesten n.b dit keer op sprookjes.Hoe beschamend om zo de aandacht af te leiden van de grotere problemen!
Londoners confronted with Dutch black face tradition
Interesting propaganda where the Black Pete / Zwarte Piet, the helper of 'Sinterklaas' who in December, goes around being a live strawman who acts stupid and ignorant to show how "offensive" the celebration is. They will cherry pick Sinterklaas images and products to make it seem as offensive as possible. They also made sure to ignore the fact that it doesn't really cause racist attitudes and that the current lore of the tale doesn't promote it. Because they know if a small amount of people with a lot of melanin are frustrated over something, something must be done about it no matter if their frustration is just or not.
All in an attempt to make our followers seem smart and our opponents seem dumb and ignorant. Afterwards the Petes hastily took off their black make up and sucked a few black cocks to apologize for their ancestor's racist mistakes.
+Thebeastcalledmydong Actually, they don't. Minorities are usually ignored in a democracy. So doing what a minority wants would be undemocratic so tough luck.
+Ruttie2 I agree plus the people who complain are a bunch of douchebags who whine and overreact anyway looking at their videos of protests. Typical troublestarters, that's what they are. All the blacks I know don't have an issue with the tradition at all.
+Thebeastcalledmydong Nobody around the globe had any problem with it. Until some asshole sparks the fuse with complete bullshit. Who started this stuff anyway?
+Ruttie2 Ik denk de misjpoge van Max,Sunny Bergman!
+Karel de Kale Mischien een trendsetter, maar niet de aanstichter volgens mij. Ik hoorde dat het iemand uit Amerika was ofzo.
+Ruttie2 Er zijn er nogal wat van deze trendsetters en steeds krijgt het gewone Nederlandse volk de rekening gepresenteerd,elke gelegenheid wordt aangegrepen,vaak onder verwijzing naar de handel in slaven (dat die in Joodse en Arabische handen was,wordt bewust verzwegen,benevens dat deze slaven in Afrika opgekocht waren van negerstammen,die als overwinnaar uit een stammenoorlog waren gekomen en de overwonnene-oorlogsbuit- als slaaf verkochten) en WOII,terwijl Nederland bezet en leeggeroofd werd door een Duits leger aangevoerd door behoorlijk veel Joodse officieren en wapens uit de fabrieken van ene heer Krupp(geen onbekende in de misjpoge).
Wanneer wordt de Nederlandse bevolking nu eindelijk eens NIET LASTIGGEVALLEN en halen de klagers hun gram daar,waar zij hem werkelijk moeten halen!
+Karel de Kale Eerst waren het kleine dingetjes zoals geen mini quadjes meer. Toen was 't vuurwerk want 't ''is niet veilig.'' Toen mochten we onze eigen vlag niet meer bij ons dragen omdat het ''discriminerend'' is. En nu dit! Where does it end? Verbied alles maar gewoon, dan! Maak de vlag ook maar gewoon grijs, want hey, dat rood wit en blauw doet sommige mensen denken aan Nederlands imperialisme. Maak er maar een grote, grijze rechthoek van. Net zo grijs als onze, oh zo prachtige wijken van beton.
Het leuke is dat Nederlanders de grootste supporters waren van nationaal socialisme in heel Europa. Hier zaten hun grootste fans hoor, en dat doorgegeven gedrag is nog steeds te merken anno 2014. Het zijn gewoon kleine Nazis hier zo die een stijve pik krijgen van de politie bellen. That's what this is about. Ze houden hier niet van leven, en lol en leuk. Dat is hier blijkbaar niet meer welkom want het veroorzaakt teveel ''overlast.''
+Ruttie2 Dat nationaal socialisme werd in eerste instantie in de dertiger jaren niet als gevaarlijk beschouwd,het Duitse achterland was immers voor de handel zeer belangrijk,bovendien waren (thans nog) de Nederlandse grensgebieden met Duitsland pro Duits.Pas de bezetting in 1940 deed velen van koers veranderen (zelfs Luns,of zijn broer?).Overigens was het nationaal socialisme en ook het communisme als je het inwendig beziet duidelijk een stroming in gang gezet door Joodse mensen,waarbij de leer van Adam Weishaupt en Hegel tevens om de hoek komt kijken.Voor de meesten hier zal dat te ver gaan,weshalve ik het bij deze aanwijzing laat.Wel duidt het geheel op een bewust plan de wereldbevolking over te leveren aan een niet democratisch gekozen wereldregering,waarbij de aanval op Zwarte Piet slecht een onbeduidend onderdeel is in verhouding tot de vele revoluties en oorlogen,waaraan een kleine kliek enorm veel verdient en waardoor de volkeren met een enorme schuldenlast opgezadeld worden.
+Karel de Kale Je bedoeld Israel? Israel heeft het grootste deel van onze ''geschiedenis'' zelf veroorzaakt. Maar ja, ze noemen je een ''conspiracy theorist'' als je dat door krijgt…
Tell me , have you grown up whit this tradition ?????
People who are not can not understand so THE have to shut thier ********
I am dutch not failing to see rasiscm cause basicly you just Saïd that THE entire education of Holland About rasiscm is bad , And no discusion cause you just did
+Ruttie2 Kijk ik zie Israel als een kunstmatig opgerichte racistische (Joodse identiteit)terreurstaat,op strategisch gelegen Palestijns gebied (Suez kanaal,olie,kruispunt 3 werelddelen),uitsluitend met het doel als bestendiging voor de globale belangen van de Rothschilds te dienen en als springplank naar het verre oosten.
Er is thans weer opnieuw een discussie aan het ontstaan omtrent de spanningen met de Marokkaanse jongeren en de Joodse gemeenschap over de holocaust onder de Joodse gemeenschap.Het zal moeilijk voor de Joodse gemeenschap worden,temeer daar er steeds meer feiten boven water komen,die ons altijd (bewust)verzwegen werden.
Het gaat er immers op lijken,dat de kuil voor de gojse bevolkingen gegraven zich uiteindelijk voor henzelf aandient.
+Karel de Kale Dat zie je niet, het is een terreurstaat. Ik herken het zelf niet, omdat het gejat land is. Net zoals America en Australia. Er hebben veel koppen moeten rollen om het überhaupt te krijgen zoals het nu is. Zo erg zelfs dat het geen ene drol meer te maken heeft met Jodendom, of vrede, liefde of wat dan ook. Het zijn gewoon een stel criminelen!
Maar dat mag je ook niet meer zeggen omdat je dan ''antisemitische'' uitspraken doet, en dat kan natuurlijk niet. Maar je mag moslims en andere Semitische volkeren natuurlijk haten en bedreigen zo veel je wilt. Dat dan weer wel.
+Ruttie2 Het grootste probleem is thans,dat in de gojse landen een niet evenredige afspiegeling is in de politieke arena,waarbij Joodse politici elkaar de bal toespelen buiten de soevereiniteit van bedoelde volkeren om en waarbij uitsluitend gojse naties worden betutteld met sancties,dan wel in zijn meest extreme vorm revoluties en oorlogen.Bij Israel wordt immers steevast geen enkele sanctie toegepast,terwijl een land als Rusland meteen op het matje wordt geroepen met een omdraaiing van de werkelijke feiten.
+Karel de Kale Dat komt omdat het westen in de handen is van Israel. Waarom zou Israel sancties op zichzelf afroepen? Dat slaat nergens op. Rusland on the other hand is super logisch omdat Rusland te veel in de weg staat en het is competitie. Het oosten is eigenlijk het enige deel wat Israel niet kan beïnvloeden. En toen Rusland ze tegenhield met Syrië en Iran waren ze behoorlijk pissed off. Dus begon de campagne om Putin kapot te maken.
Het begon met de Olympic wintergames. Met dat homo gedoe en de LGBT movement, zeg maar dat je niet homo's mag massa promoten (wat trouwens ook niet mag in Israel maar die is de baas dus daar houdt het op.)
Ik wist al dat het voor hun niet genoeg was. Want ik merkte al dat de media er erg mee bezig was. Ze hadden iets nieuws nodig, en rara hoe kan het, kort daarna begon dat hele gedoe met Ukraine!
Deze lui zijn heel voorspelbaar als je een beetje inschat wat ze gaan doen.
+Ruttie2 Israel is gewoon een huurlingenleger van de Rothschilds en bij deze familie c.s. ligt de werkelijke financieele macht.Enkele instituten zoals de FED in de US,de Wereldbank en het IMF zijn Joodse instellingen,waaraan wij via Joodse politici aan blootgesteld zijn (zie hierbij JanKees de Jager een homo sexuele Joodse politicus bij het CDA),die buiten de Nederlandse bevolking om als een heler dit volk borg liet staan voor de schulden van Griekenland.
+Karel de Kale Nou ja, ''Joodse instellingen.'' Het zijn niet echt Joden omdat ze zich er totaal niet aan houden, het zijn gewoon Zionisten die Jodendom gebruiken als een soort Nazi ideology. Een soort Mein Kampf als het ware.
Heel Europa is allang naar de klote. Griekenland is one of many. Maar het is gewoon vingers wijzen naar iets anders.
+Ruttie2 Het "Joods" zijn is onder te verdelen:de orthodoxe en de seculiere (spek)Joden,de sefardiem,de ashkenazim (khazaren) en de falasha (neger) Joden,
de chassiediem en de mizrachi.
Hitler was volgens DNA onderzoek van zijn familie in de USA Joods,evenals velen uit zijn omgeving:Hugo Gutmann uit WOI ,Emiel Maurice zijn chauffeur,ook de ideoloog van de Nazi s was de Baltische Jood Alfred Rosenberg,evenals Adolf Eichmann,Leni Riefenstahl,vele hoge officieren in de Wehrmacht waren Joods etc.zodat men niet ontkomen kan aan de indruk,dat hier een gruwelijk spel is gespeeld om te komen tot oprichting van Israel op Palestijns gebied,waar de Rothschilds reeds belangrijke investeringen hadden gedaan {zie ook het Suez kanaal en de Balfour declaration van 1917 tussen de Rothschild en Balfour (!)}
Gaan we terug naar de leer van Adam Weishaupt ( de architektuur van de macht) en die van Hegel, de leer van de tegenstellingen-these-anti_these- synthese.Men schept een bepaald probleem en komt dan met de vooraf bedachte oplossing aan.
Ook het communisme kenmerkt zich door de vele Joden aan de top, 2 totalitaire systemen,die eerst elkaar accepteren,zelfs gezamenlijk Polen bezetten,maar vervolgens door een vernietigingsoorlog (operatie Barbarossa) Europa geheel aan de bedelstaf brengen,wat de Amerikanen via de Marshall"hulp"de mogelijkheid gaf West Europa met handen en voeten economisch te binden,na eerder Hitler geldelijk gesteund te hebben.
Van de FED is bekend,dat deze instelling onder beheer van de Rothschilds staat.De Wereldbank en het IMF kun je via de media en de namen,die hiemede in verband worden gebracht als "Joods"classificeren.Onderling lichten ze elkaar wel pootje,gezien de affaire Strauss-Kahn.Op financieen zit altijd een Joodse politicus,die niet verantwoording aan de autochtone bevolking aflegt,maar wel aan voormelde instelling.
De bedoeling is kennelijk om de gojse landen via het geldsysteem in de slavernij te brengen,waarbij het doel van registratie via de chip,net als bij het vee niet veraf meer is.Zodra al de liquide geldmiddelen aan het verkeer onttrokken worden is er nl geen mogelijkheid meer om als "wereld"burger nog in vrijheid te leven.(Zie ook de Protocollen van de Wijzen van Zion,de grondslag van de holocaust onder de eenvoudige Joden tijdens WOII ,een belangrijk stuk, wat ons bij geschiedenis tot en met de Uni altijd bewust verzwegen bleef)
+Karel de Kale Ga weg met jullie idiote jodengelul.
+Finiras Waarom?Zijn de werkelijke feiten te zwaar voor jou om te verteren?
+Karel de Kale Joden zijn geen ras als het dat is wat je denkt. Jodendom is een geloof en niks meer. Arabieren, ook wel bekend als ''semitische'' volkeren zijn caucasian, net zoals de rest van het ''blanke'' ras. Het is jaren '40 mentaliteit om te denken dat er meer dan een paar basis rassen zijn. Alleen Zionisten geloven in zulk soort flauwekul.
Je bent of een Jood, of je bent het niet. Je kan niet een halve-Jood zijn, dat bestaat niet. Het kan technisch gezien wel, maar dan ben je geen echte Jood.
Hah, kennelijk gaat er in America een verglijkbare discussie op over het blootstellen van kinderen aan uhm.. kerst. http://www.whdh.com/story/27452774/belmont-school-reverses-decision-to-cancel-nutcracker-trip
Mooi
+MegaLiquidice I'd be totally fine with rainbow Piet, but they just look creepy… Can't we just mix it up with all races?
we could do that but how we tel the kids ??
I am sure we can find something on that but no Clown piet the are creapy as * espacialy for kids
+Xavi Aiden
its never been a racial thing until racists wanted to ban the black color. I think they just need to re do the background story. its a festivity for children were you lie to them till there of a certain age and tell them its all fake/made up, and that does stacks up with the easter-bunny and tooth-fairy. You tell your kids its wrong to tell a lie, but lie to them constantly.
+Simon Woolcot
How exactly can you be more bothered by men PAINTED black than a goat being SLAUGHTERED?
+Enalya Sumari That depends on the context.
+Ruttie2
Yea and everything is relative and all, useful answer…
Well what evs, I wish you all a good day and life.
+Enalya Sumari No I seriously mean it depends on the context. Slaughtering animals is required in order to get meat on your plate so I'm not against that, nor am I against people painting themselves black to pretend to be some kids character for an annual tradition.
+Ruttie2 Ah I follow, true. Wish more people thought like you do.
+Rico D that clown Piet is indeed creepy as all hell.
+Noze P. well maybe we should just ban santa claus çause he is having slaves working for him as well might they be little people "elves" as one would call them. you could even call it discrimination against small people but they dont seem to be offended so wy should black people be offended by zwarte piet. it is just seeking for the racism in a society and complaining about it then moving to the next country and do the exact same thing
+Gsniperify ban all things! :p
+Simon Woolcot It's not sinterklaas without Black Pete, saying you like Sinterklaas but not Black Pete is an oxymoron.
let's ban smurfs, all those stereotypes really offend me, so much, that before someone from the EU said something about it, I never even thought of it.
sounds logical right?
no? well that was what happened.
let's also ban Santa because he mistreats animals and uses white dwarfs as slaves. this whole "discussion" is bullshit and clearly shows how much of an attention whore some people are by saying how offensive things are to them.
+Maarten Raaijmakers The worst part is that they actually get what they want in a supposedly democratic society.
It goes to show how hypocritical people have become.
+Ruttie2 the more butthurt people are, the more their vote counts…
+Maarten Raaijmakers Huh, then it's not really a democracy anymore now is it? That's more of a semantic society whereby someone gets to dictate whether something is hurtful and should be banned or not.
What it looks like, you annoying bastard, is that fucking sinterklaas should stay inside the netherlands. Not leave, not be introduced elsewhere.
Zwarte piet is not racist. Zwarte piet is black, yeah, but simply have him being black is not racist. It would be racist if we would have him be hanging on a chain, following sinterklaas without free will and have kids beat him up or some shit. This is not the case. Kids who grew up with zwarte piet and actually fucking know the story absolutely love him. Is that what racism is nowadays? Having kids love a black guy?
+Max Huijgen "In five years time we could even have a non-white Sinterklaas for a change. On the total outfit that small piece of skin color won't have any effect on the children's experience. Maybe Humberto Tan wants to do it for one year "
Yes, have the man we're celebrating be of a completely different race all of the sudden, shall we remember martin luther king as an indian guy from time to time as well? Maybe have the king be asian on koningsdag every once in a while, that'll be fun and totally make sense.
The biggest problem with a lot of dutch people, is that they're control freaks. They get an erection from calling the police, that's why they eat this bullshit up in the media. Everytime when people enjoy something, some asshole out there is filled with envy and frustration and wishes nothing but to destroy other people's fun. That's what this is about.
Like how they want to ban fireworks and all that stuff. This is becoming worse by the year!
+spyridonm Oh, that was racist, GO ON PLEASE.
DO tell me what part of those two comments were racist, I'm incredibly interested.
Unless, of course, you have no actual reason to call my comments "racist talk" and you're just talking shit because you have nothing intelligent to say. Wouldn't be the first time in this debate, you not having anything intelligent to say.
+De1AndOnlyKingLoller It wasn't racist, they're too fucking stupid to value logic, that's why they agree with the whole zwarte piet is racist bullshit in the first place.
+MegaLiquidice
Yeah. No. Fuck the entire holiday if you're making Rainbow Petes. Fuck the entirety of Sinterklaas that way.
+snipzz Qwickskope No it isn't.
+snipzz Qwickskope Show me, asshole.
+snipzz Qwickskope That's not proof, just a claim. I don't have time for claims, claim all you want, but the people I know including meself don't give a flying fuck about your claims.
Claim whatever you like, nobody gives.
+snipzz Qwickskope We don't care about what other countries think, they have their own disturbing things and we leave them to it as well so that's just hypocritical.
+snipzz Qwickskope We sure as hell don't try to ban them just because we as foreigners don't like them.
+snipzz Qwickskope No we're not.
+snipzz Qwickskope Capitalism is slavery as well so I guess we should ban that too, oh wait, you need those slaves for your iPhone.
I forgot.
+snipzz Qwickskope It's you who doesn't say anything about capitalism, not me. I'm against money and mass production. You seem to love it.
As long as they're not black, right? It's wrong to have black slaves, but asian ones aren't a problem to you.
+snipzz Qwickskope No, they are made by slaves in China right now and no one seems to care. Including you. Your clothes and the PC you're using right now all come from Chinese slave factories.
But zwarte piet is somehow bad.
It's wise to give aggressive ignorants what they want unless you have something to defend.
+snipzz Qwickskope Oh sure. They get beaten, and poisoned just by making the damn things, want to kill themselves and are not allowed to quit.
An absolute ''paradise.''
+snipzz Qwickskope No they aren't. They get beaten to shit and they're stuck on a contract. Those people live in actual poverty and misery.
But that doesn't bother you at all. Instead, you bitch about a celebration for kids. Kids with a life. Kids with parents and money and a roof over their head. Happy kids.
You can't have that.
+snipzz Qwickskope You don't seem to care about forced labor in China, or in Africa, or in South America at all. Nor do you give a shit about the Israelis bombing Palestinians to pulp, nor do you care about the Tibetans who are being beaten up by the Chinese government and who get sterlized against their will.
Instead, you rather bother people who are doing fine. That's some logic right there, pal.
We don't fail to understand it hurts people. People fail to understand that being hurt doesn't mean anything. Freedom of speech and all right?
+snipzz Qwickskope
He is trying to explain to you than slavery still exists today. If you honestly do care about slavery, then why focus your attention on a holiday that supposedly connects to slavery instead of ACTUAL FUCKING SLAVERY GOING ON RIGHT NOW. You don't care about slavery. You just have a knee-jerk response to seeing a black guy being nice to people and immediately have to shout racism. That is fine. That is your culture. Whatever. But then don't say you actually care about slavery.
+snipzz Qwickskope Hahaha, you're right, good one.
Please, do look up what "racism' is, quote me exactly what you find in the dictionairy.
+lulhoofd1 Precisely.
+De1AndOnlyKingLoller Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. It often takes the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. It may also hold that members of different races should be treated differently
+GameCommandoNL Good boy.
Now tell me, how is teaching your kids "yeah those black guys are awesome" racist.
+De1AndOnlyKingLoller well, "black guys are awesome" is racist. Its not hurtfull or bad, it is racist though. U say based on their race that they are awesome.
I dont think "zwarte piet"should be abolished, but I know its racist. But man, woman and mens bathrooms are sexist, so ffs. who cares
From your post i conclude that vocal minority is the one that attacks it, those who defend it represent the majority.
+Krzysztof Jarzyna Yeah, but the netherlands isn't a democracy, so zwarte piet will probably be going anyway.
+De1AndOnlyKingLoller Yeah.
+EuropaX Because European cultures are dominated by the rich that's why.
+EuropaX Better question is why does European Culture feel it is so damn superior it can degrade and insult all other cultures? Maybe the inclusive part is to show you are NOT the superior racist destroyers of other cultures that YOU once were. Sins of the father and all.
+Bridget Lee Europe was actually the most advanced and best place in the world not too long ago.
+Ruttie2 it still is, not so advanced anymore but it is the best place to live.
You have been drinking the kool aid. They were the destroyers of civilizations much older than them. They were destroyers of entire eco systems all for their greed. And the liars they still are today. Read the real history and not the bullshit rewritten by them. If history were a movie they would be the big dark thing that came to kill and destroy everything else around it.
+EuropaX Not anymore, Israel runs this place like one of them Arabian harems. They ruined this place, ruined it! It was a good continent once and now people are fighting each other, and it's all the fault of the rich, Zionist, pedophilic and homosexual elites and their ideas.
+Bridget Lee You haven't been drinking enough.
That's shit that humans do in general, stop believing that it's only europeans who do that shit. You're fucking delusional.
kids don't think about race. They think about the candy. Period. and I am American.. with that said, if you really want to go at it, what I have been saying in every post is this:
– Let's remove American Thanksgiving since that OFFENDS Native Americans
– Let's remove American Santa since he is fat and eats the cookies while the elves are slaves to Santa and get nothing but a smile that the gifts are gone.
– Short people should be OFFENDED by the elves (American version) because elves are short.
– 'Elf on the Shelf', everyone should be OFFENDED by that because the 'elf on the shelf' is a slave to Santa but wait! Elf on the shelf is 'Santa's Helper'
so let's get rid of Santa tradition altogether to make everyone happy, okay? haha.
I am 3rd generation Belgian American with also Dutch ancestry and yes I do celebrate the Dutch Santa and Zwarte Piet with my kids. They are young and only care about the candy but I have explained to my oldest kid not to talk about it in school because people who do not know the history will find it offensive:
Zwarte Piet HELPS St. Nick. He is not a slave. He is Santa's helper and if you are naughty he will whip you or put you into a sack… what does Santa do? He hands out gifts… as far as the dirty face from going down the chimney ?
Shouldn't Americans be OFFENDED by American Version of St. Nick since he gets dirty and the elves stay clean? so is American Santa really offensive? seriously.. this is stupid. only 2% get OFFENDED with everything while others don't see color on skin, they see love in all races and everyone being equal… and don't care about the race card. They let it go and move on.
I am always surprised how many lies can fall out of the mouths of whites. I guess you think if I keep saying it….. THEN it will be true. IF YOU ARE SO DAMN comfortable with this tradition then why do you care what other people think? YOU know why you hide it??? I DO. Because you know it is NOT as harmless as you claim and it is full of hate and racism. That is why you sneak around playing the racist. Then you will smile in the black man's face and say YOU arent a racist while behind close door you teach your children we are less than them. Guess what Rachel Kent. I do the same thing…. :-))))
+Max Huijgen HOW THE HELL IS THIS NOT MEANT TO be racist? I mean it was created by racist people who needed to justify the selling, raping, killing and enslaving of people based on their dirty black skin. Wow are you really this fucking stupid or are you faking it?
+Bridget Lee : you are basically stereotyping all white people? Oh here we go again, pulling out the card. ::rolls eyes:: That card is used too much …. in everything now-a-days. Honestly, please don't group people together. I never have and I have friends of all races and religions and we never get offended with each other.. And yes there are good white people and bad white people, same for EVERY SINGLE RACE. So DO NOT GROUP us whities . in fact we are not 'white' we are peachy – cream haha. I do get offended by that word.
We should be called: White-Euro-Americans – that is to be politically correct.
Again you did not read anything I said. You basically gave up on what I said on the first couple of sentences. Tell me, do kids see race? no they do not. And fyi, i don't either. If anyone should be offended are the SPANISH and the SPANISH MOOR's.. but then again the SPANISH oppressed the Dutch and the Belgians for YEARS. (that is why Zwarte Piet was created … nothing to do with Africa. Has to do with SPANISH. And St. Nick wanted to get this guy freedom, and from what I was taught, Piet wanted to be with Santa to help him. in fact he is better than St. Nick… St. Nick is lazy. Zwarte Piet actually does what American St. Nick does ) The Low lands aka Belgium and Netherlands were hated and considered trash oh and were slaves of the Spanish. You really want to go on a history lesson ? I have no problem .That is my degree 🙂 And you think I am racist? oh please don't go there. I was brought up with Dr. King 's words. Words of love and peace. Not words of hate. And my African American friends know about the Belgian Tradition and once I explained it to them, they were not offended. In fact they said, they wished they did not paint their faces fully and I told them I agree.
So please read what I say before you make an opinion on what I said.. because you didn't. I said :
– NATIVE AMERICANS should be OFFENDED by Thanksgiving.. since white man did kill off the Native Americans. .notice i said MAN did. Let's ban that holiday.
– American Santa should be changed too since hte elves are 'short people' and thus short people should be OFFENDED. in fact i Know they are and years ago there was a controversy about this same subject. "Change the tradition" . Has it? no. Santa in the states goes down the chimney and gets dirty. In Belgium/Dutch history, it is Zwarte Piet who gets dirty. At least in Dutch tradition, Zwarte Piet gets the candy. In America, Santa gets fat and dirty. Great way to stereotype us Americans LOL
– and since I am out in the open , being white and all… yeah my southern side did own slaves. not cool at all but when I learned about my ancestor who left Scotland due to the English ..wanting to kill all the Scottish clans due to some historical war.. he had a heart and yes he did buy a woman for a large sum of money in the mid- 1700s, even for those days, why? because he wanted her to be free. He believed in freedom for all, something that passed down through generations and he would buy people freedom, because he didn't believe in that subject. Most Scots (Americans) didn't to-be-honest.
– My Belgian side? Yeah, I am Flemish and my family had to leave because of things about Flemish culture was banned. Also:
Please don't judge a book by its cover. I never have and never will. I like to get all of my facts before I make an opinion ..l just like when it comes to voting. I never vote no the party, I vote on who will rock it as the next president. And yes, I did vote for Obama. Oh and I am related to him too.
+Bridget Lee To justify what?
What the all living fuck are you talking about?
Give me one book, one drawing that tries to justify raping, killing and enslaving with the name "sinterklaas" anywhere inside of it.
Name one thing that has the main message of "LOOK KIDS, THEY'RE NOT HUMANS, ITS OKAY TO FUCK EM UP".